Just wondering, why aren't the major TPGs competing with CAC?

Charmy,

I understand your point, but IMO most average collectors can't grade very well at all. It would be nice if everyone could learn how to grade, but it is not an easy thing to do and because of the inherent subjectivity, it is never concrete. I think the registries are responsible for bringing many more collectors to our great hobby. And although some or most of them may be coin robots, they would simply be coin idiots without the TPG's. I will take a coin robot over a coin idiot any day.

With regards to the CAC, you know that I asked the boys at CRO to submit my MS65 Lafayette Dollar to the CAC prior to purchasing the coin. This is not an 1881-S Morgan Dollar that I can simply rely on my experience of viewing thousands of coins. I had never seen an MS65 Lafayette Dollar before and there is no way to reasonably expect that I would know how to grade the coin. Here is a photo (courtesy of Mark Goodman) of the coin in question.



I was concerned that the coin was an MS64 that was bumped up to an MS65 because of the eye appeal of the piece. My concerns were two fold, the mark on Washington's cheek and the pull away toning between the A & M in AMERICA. For these reasons, I asked that Dave Wnuck (CRO) submit the coin to the CAC for review. My terms were as follows. If the coin stickered, I would agree to buy the coin at the price listed on their website reserving the option to return upon seeing the coin in hand. If the coin did not sticker, I would establish credit and they would send the coin to me on approval at which point I would decide either to pass or make and offer on the coin.

Dave quickly agreed to send the coin to the CAC. The coin did not sticker but JA gave his reason on a red sticker that he placed on the holder. He indicated that the coin was an MS65 but the obverse toning was too dark in his opinion to merit a good for the grade sticker (see photo below).



At this point Dave sent the coin to me on approval. After seeing the coin in hand I offered to pay 10% below the list price and the consignor of the coin agreed.

Here is my question for you. Do you think that when dealing with high price coins of this level that a customer asking for a CAC opinion is wrong? My opinion is that it becomes a service issue at this price level. If you have someone willing to make that large of a purchase, you would want them to return to you as a customer in the future.

 

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Man I'm so glad to see we're all enjoying our Labor Day! I have an excuse, folks, I've been hard at work all day. But before I go off and join the warm company of the gang for the brats and beer (...hell, I hope they saved me some!), I think I want to caution you, Mark, that forwarding this thread to Mr. Albanese, as you're suggesting, in my honest and humble opinion, that is to say, is hardly what one would refer to as the better part of discretion, here. Just respectfully-submitted, pal...

 

Oh, one last thing. That's not the reason he started CAC. He's right about the A, B and C coins (...I've hear of that, too, anyway), as well as that the C coins have been, in my words, diluting the market, watering it down. Here, read the whole thing, in his words: http://www.caccoin.com/cac-in-the-news/an-interview-with-john-albanese-by-maurice-rosen/. I think he's providing a useful service, here, now, to 'tell ya the truth. Of course, it's still just his opinion as to what constitutes an A and a B, but read the forgoing interview...this guy's hardly some slouch, and gets across very intelligently...

 

If I were in Mr. Albanese's shoes and someone had libeled me, I would want to know about it. Especially if the responsible party had been made aware of his inaccuracy, yet wouldn't retract it or apologize. So I will be going with what I think, rather than what you suggest.

 

I didn't say it was, nor did anyone else here, as best I can remember. I talked to him about it on numerous occasions long before he started CAC.

 

Charmy, it's hard to disagree with any of this (or your later post).:hail: As for coin education, that's why I'm here!

I do think that Lehigh makes another good point in his later post, which is if a collector decides to buy a coin in a series he doesn't normally collect, he either doesn't buy it (my usual course of action) or takes a reasonable alternative course of action, which IMO is what Lehigh did.

 

Do what you feel you have to do...

Then I guess we agree...

 

First, I sincerely apologize for my long-winded postings here - I see that I may be overusing my space on this forum, so feel free to penalize me and limit my word count at any time! Unfortunately, I've never been able to learn how to write/say my thoughts to important issues in 10 words or less (I guess I should have been a political speech writer)!

Lehigh, I agree - IF I had to choose a bot over an idiot - however, why do we have to choose. Why can't we as a coin collector society quit placing so much emphasis on a holdered coin and go back to training/teaching young people and new collectors the importance of learning to grade first. I see too many young collectors (young being a relative term) talk so much about what holder to buy - and never mention what the coin looks like.

Sadly, I am afraid it might be too late, that learning to grade will always be secondary now as a result of the global emphasis placed on coins in TPG holders. I also very much agree that the registry set programs have brought many new people to coin collecting. Like I said, who ever thought of that idea is a coin marketing genius!

Let me ask you this, why would you spend that kind of $$$ on a coin you know so little about? Wow, personally, and I say this respectfully, I can't imagine doing that. Before I would put out big dollars on a coin or most anything that I was not familiar with, I would study, research, ask a ton of questions, compare, talk to experts, etc. I would not be comfortable relying on a sticker to tell me that a particular coin is graded correctly. (Personally, for some reason if I was so inclined to purchase an unfamiliar expensive coin perhaps for investment purposes, I would prefer to rely on someone I trust and who's opinion and assessment I generally agree with, perhaps a long time dealer friend or specialist or two in that particular coin series, rather than rely on the holder or sticker.)

As far as the dealer sending a highend coin to CAC as a courtesy to the potential buyer in order to help make the deal, I would have to evaluate that on a case-by-case basis. I will concede that it probably makes good business sense to do this for a highend coin and because it seems very important to the customer, and as a dealer, that it is my goal to be of good service to my customers. But I would first strongly encourage my customer to try and decide if he is comfortable with the coin as is, and if he has a question as to its quality, then I might suggest he probably should pass. If he didn't like the ding or toning, why would a qualification sticker change that original inclination - perhaps the coin would be easier to sell, but wouldn't you still NOT like the ding or toning even if the holder had a green sticker?

It does sound like in your case, it was a more of a win/win situation because of the way the deal was crafted - it wasn't a cut and dry "if it doesn't sticker, I won't buy it" kind of thing. So, as long as both sides are happy, I can see why a dealer would go the route your dealer did.

 

FWIW, you'd have never got that 10%-off from me had I owned that coin. That seller was intimidated by that red sticker. I can make stickers like that, too, BTW. In fact, I've got a whole slew of them, already, for some tri-fold marketing sealers, got 'em at Office Max. And that obverse, BTW, isn't "too dark," IMHO. And I'm getting real hungry now for those brats and that beer...

 

I would guess the point is Lehigh put some weight into CAC's opinion, do you think he would put some in yours?

 

As did the seller, if you'll notice.

Yeah, actually, now that you mention it, I do. You should, too.

 

I think the seller did what was asked as a condition of the sale.
Your opinions are duly noted.

 

Very informative and entertaining thread.....I've thoughly enjoyed this discussion. Been a real eye opener. Guess I'll stay on the porch 'cause there's no way I can run with the big dogs....

Hey Eddie, save some brats for me.....

 

Seeing as how you're such a hard guy to please and I really do have to go now, I'll settle for "duly noted," that's better than nothing.

 

Hey Ken, I gladly would, but by this point, I don't think there are even any left over for me.

 

The wink was about teasing you, as I assume you were doing to me.

 

Duly noted. But really, sorry I didn't come across right before.

PS: Just had to order a late pizza for dinner, should that be of any consequence to any of you!

 

Charmy,

I did as much research on Lafayette Dollars as one can IMO. If you would like to read the thread I wrote about Lafayette Dollars before I purchased that coin, feel free:

http://www.cointalk.com/t50032/

I also solicited the opinion of the CT members prior to making my purchasing decision. Some of the input I was given helped me decide on my plan on how to handle the situation with Dave from CRO. You can read that thread here:

http://www.cointalk.com/t51115/

FWIW, I consider John Albanese's opinion and expert opinion. I don't personally know any numismatists who would have been able to assist me with this purchase. Even if I did, I doubt I would trust their opinion over JA's. Nobody is "relying on a sticker to tell them that a particular coin is graded correctly." That sticker represents the opinion of one the leaders of the numismatic and grading community. If you have someone that you trust more, then that is great, I don't.

BTW, there is nothing about the coin that I don't like. I was simply being prudent in trying to strike the best deal I could for the coin.

 

Lehigh, I agree and am very impressed with all your research, both within and outside this forum, including soliciting opinions on the grade. It is obvious that you put a lot of time and effort into this particular series. And it is a very beautiful coin, plain and simple.

Just consider this one last thing - I'm not sure how CAC is run, and perhaps for now at least Albanese is personally doing all the "grading" but eventually, if they continue to be as popular as they seem to be, I am assuming others will be doing the grading, then how can you trust that "an expert" is the one looking at your coin?

Any way, it's dead horse time! Thank you for letting me rant a bit about this TPG/CAC grading issue.... Hope it makes some people think about focusing on the coin and not who holdered it. Night all.

 

That would be LeHigh, Charmy!:whistle:

I've also wondered about the viability of CAC once JA passes from this good earth (presumably from natural causes and not from shock from libelous statements :eating! What will the sticker mean then? Will its value be diluted by his partner's unknown credibility?

Regarding all the good comments about learning how to grade, I would say that a type collector has a very tall order to learn every kind of a coin's characteristics. Not impossible, but likely to influence one to rely a little on the TPG and the affirmation of CAC.