Just won this from Heritage Auctions...

I agree that this is a beautiful coin.

I am not sure, however, that I would have liked to have seen a triumphant Carthage under Hannibal. Carthage was certainly not some sort of Ancient Venetian Republic. It wasn't even an Athenian democratic thalassocracy (sea empire). Carthage was more like a superficially Hellenized despotic state that behaved like a mixture of ruthless Vikings and rapacious Somalian pirates. Unlike Ancient Rome, Carthage lacked the culture that could influence other empires throughout the Mediterranean and would help to shape the modern world.

A defeated Rome would not have the resources to produce all the great literature, culture, art, ... and coins that we all admire. In fact, had Rome lost the Punic Wars, the Roman Republic along with the rest of Italy would have splintered into warring city states.

This probably means, of course, no Ancient coin subforum (among other things).



(Image of Ancient Carthage)

 

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Hannibal, unfortunately for him, suffered from a lack of support from Carthage's ruling elite and lost hope of reinforcements when his less talented brother Hasdrubal was completely defeated on his way to reinforce Hannibal in Italy.

Hannibal also probably didn't have the numbers or the siege technology to take Rome itself.

 

Sounds like the Carthaginians were more like the ancient world's equivalent of Klingons. Interesting to ponder how different things would have been if they had defeated Rome.

 

Would make a nice debate. And agreed to all you put out there. Personally, Epaminondas, Phillip II, Alexander III were perfect examples of rapid follow-up to exploit victory and continued momemtum to win a war. Hannibal paused. Rome won.

 

Alexander III was lucky that i was not the Persian King of Kings. I would have deployed my bowmen to decimate Alexanders Army, much like what happened to French at Agincourt. Darius III made many awfull mistakes in all his battles vs the Macedonians. Had Cyrus/Cambyses been in charge, things would have ended differently.

 

@panzerman awesome coin!

Since we were talking a little bit about Hannibal...

I would suggest this fine book, "Hannibal's Dynasty: Power and Politics in the Western Mediterranean, 247-183 BC" by Dexter Hoyos. It's an interesting read that would appeal to anyone wishing to learn more about Hannibal and his family.

 

Agreed. Darius III was a buffoon! And Persia was ripe for conquest.

I just purchased that book. I have a stack of books to read before it, but I am really looking forward to it! LOL, maybe I should move it to the top of the stack since I am starting to accumulate a lot of Carthage and Hannibal Era coinage!

 

So many books so little time...

 

Very few people are willing to give Epaminondas his due (or even know who he is ). Brilliant tactician and strategist who was the first to be able to challenge Sparta on land directly. So a big +1 to your comment.

I think you also might be right about Hannibal pausing costing him. If he had shown up at the gates of Rome right after Cannae the pchycological effect might have been enough to cause a surrender even if he couldn't have taken the city by force.

 

That is exactly how I perceive it. Even if he did NOT have sufficient resources, JUST showing up at the Gates of Rome may had forced their capitulation! Rome was TERRIFIED at that moment in history. Sad for Hannibal that the lessons of Epaminondas, Phillip II, and Alexander III were only 100 years earlier... fresh in the minds and documents that Hannibal had access to.

 

Without a dedicated professionally trained army to counter Alexander's I don't think Cyrus or Cambyses would have fared much better. Alexander was smart enough not to march his phalanx into a muddy trap like the French did.

Plus at the battle of Jaxartes against the excellent Scythian archers Alexander devised a brilliant strategy based on an unprecedented amount of coordination between his artillery, army and navy (only a well trained army could have pulled this off). He countered the enemy archers with brilliant tactics, pinned them down and completely defeated them. Only him and his father to my knowledge ever managed such a feat on a nomadic army. Alexander really was as amazing as his reputation IMHO

 

Nailed it!

 

I wish I knew more about ancients...but I'm afraid that I would get hooked also.
It is gold?

 

Is this coin from what is modern day Tunisia?

 

Getting hooked unto Ancients/is a good thing
Yes it is gold/ from region that is modern day Tunisia/Libya/Algeria....
John

 

Indeed. Carthago delenda est. Nice coins though!

 

Very well put. I was also thinking of the Klingon comparison but I wasn't sure that anyone would have understood the reference.

I thought these quotes from Wikipedia about Carthage are very telling:

There was a body known as the Tribunal of the Hundred and Four, which Aristotle compared to the Spartan ephors. These were judges who acted as a kind of higher constitutional court and oversaw the actions of generals, who could sometimes be sentenced to crucifixion, as well as other officials.

The urns contained the charred bones of newborns and in some cases the bones of fetuses and two-year-olds. There is a clear correlation between the frequency of cremation and the well-being of the city. In bad times (war, poor harvests) cremations became more frequent, but it is not known why. One explanation for this correlation is the claim that the Carthaginians prayed for divine intervention via child sacrifice; however, bad times would naturally lead to increased child mortality, and consequently, more child burials via cremation.

I contend that if Carthage had been a rich and humane culture, some evidence of this would persist (in the form of literature or works of art such as pottery or sculpture) despite Rome's total destruction of the city. Carthage did not disseminate its influence beyond commercial interests throughout its empire. The richness of Ancient Greek culture has survived despite many foreign invasions and it spread throughout the ancient and modern world.

 

The Carthaginians were ethnically Phoenicians who were responsible for developing one of (if not the) first alphabet in the ancient world which the Greeks took and revolutionized by adding vowels. I think they probably had a thriving culture as well as traditions that we just don't know as much about because they ended up on the wrong side of history (imagine if the Persians had conquered Greece and we never heard of Socrates, Aristotle, Aristophanes, Pericles etc.)

Totally agree with you that they were a brutal Klingonish bunch who had a bad reputation all over the Mediterranean and most certainly practiced child sacrifice. In fact I listened to a lecture once by a professor from Stanford (Dr. Hunt, great lecturer) who made the argument that Hannibal made his famous vow to fight the Romans as his father was offering a replacement sacrifice to Baal for his own life. Hannibal translates to "grace of Baal" which makes this theory even more interesting.

Sorry we got a bit off topic but I love the history component of coin collecting