Just got the elusive 1916 Barber Half....

So we might as well just give the Chinese a pass when they sell "copies" of our coins . Like a friend told me you can't have it both ways . Especially coins like his '64-D Peace dollar .

 

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They are not in any way the same. Daniel Carr produced reproductions that have been restruck or modified, and his own designs as well.They are advertised on his website prominently as such. The Chinese copies are produced with intent to deceive--how you can say that it is the same makes no sense.

 

It isn't what I would call a "small loophole". As I understand it, in China there are no restrictions on making unmarked copies of any coin (Chinese or otherwise) that was minted prior to 1949 (the year that the communists took over China). And there are no laws in China restricting the export of such items. Some countries have laws against importing and selling them.

In 1986 the US Mint issued a commemorative Statue of Liberty silver dollar. Some Chinese-made copies have been seen with an absurd "1906" date on them. The reason for that may be to dodge the 1949 restriction. At least those are easy to spot due to the date. They are not over-struck on US dollar coins, and they can not be legal tender in any way.

 

@dcarr, do you think fewer people would buy your coins if you placed a small "DC" within the reeding? If so, why?

 

So you're telling me the '64-D is not the same as Chinese fakes , to me they're both copies of a coin that was produced . I actually like some of Mr . Carrs fantasy coins of his original designs and give him much credit for them and his marketing . But I don't like unmarked copies of coins that have been made by the mint . You say that they have certain markers , well that's to be expected of any new die just like the Chinese counterfeits . I also remembering you say that people who buy unslabbed Trade dollars are at fault because they haven't educated themselves . So maybe if the Chinese sent a disclaimer with the die marriage differences like Mr. Carr does on his '64 Peace copies all will be right in the collecting world .

 

Oh, the IRONY! Thats's priceless... just priceless.

Come on, Mr. Carr...it is not "absurd" at all, but is a "fantasy" piece and, per your own logic, not a "copy" at all even though the design used is further away from the (copied) original than your own. As a wise man once said: you can't have it both ways.

 

I don't know. They might not care that much if it was small and unobtrusive.
But if you are worried about some hypothetical harm that might come to a person from buying such a coin without really knowing what it is, if they aren't paying attention to the obvious date on the coin, they probably wouldn't pay any attention to a small "DC" on the edge. And even if they did notice the small "DC", if they don't know anything about coins they might think it is supposed to be there. But as I've said previously, these hypothetical persons that would pay a LOT of money for a coin they know nothing about, I don't think they really exist. It requires special knowledge to become willing to pay a lot of money for a coin.

 

You are employing your own logic here, not mine.
The Chinese pieces are struck on low-grade base-metal blanks. There is no silver content. They are not struck on US legal-tender silver dollar coins. Mine are. So that constitutes the difference between a "copy" coin and a "defaced" coin.

Regardless, the "market" has spoken. Like it or not, some people will pay a fair amount for my past over-strikes. They will not pay much of anything for the Chinese copies. Several times I have seen the "1906" Chinese dollar sell for less than the apparent face value. But they are so cheaply made that the maker could still profit by "spending" them. The lowest price realized in recent internet auctions for any of my various dollar coin over-strikes has been around $150 each (well above the issue prices).

 

Semantics . So if the Chinese used old US coins they wouldn't be counterfeits but "overstrikes." Wow I learn something new everyday .

 

Thanks. It's not that I'm worried someone might be fooled. But it seems like a simple thing to do that would eliminate the issue that is causing folks to question your work, motives, art, etc.

 

The 1964-D Peace Dollar was produced by the US Mint, but they were never issued. According to the US Treasury, none were ever released and all were destroyed.

When and where did I say or write that ?
The trade dollars you speak of were made with the intent to deceive, and they were intentionally and clandestinely sold as genuine coins. The makers did not announce or publish anything about what they were doing. The fault here lies with the persons perpetrating this scam. But I always suggest that anyone learn about something before they dive into it.

If some Chinese maker were to start striking "1964-D" Peace dollars over genuine US Mint Peace dollars of 1922-1964 vintage, at least they would be made of actual silver and would sell for higher prices.

But here is an example of the market in action. I just went to the eBay Coins and Paper Money category and I did a search of Sold Items for "1964 Peace". The two most recently-ended auction results are:

A base-metal Chinese "1964-D Peace Dollar" which sold for $7.83 .
A "Daniel Carr" over-strike "1964-D" Peace Silver Dollar (lower bulk-handled quality), which had 30 bids sold for $245.00 .

Here is the typical quality of the Chinese pieces:



Here is one of my over-strikes (on the right):

 

You know, if someone takes an old US coin, and overstrikes it with a design that was never actually minted -- I don't think it matters whether they're here, or in China, or using eBay Interplanetary Shipping to send them here from Mars. It's still not violating the HPA.

Now, why do you suppose the Chinese manufacturers aren't doing that? That's right -- they're not out to supply a tiny niche of advanced collectors, they're trying to scam all the money they can with copies of coins that were actually issued, struck on base-metal blanks (or, in some cases, silver blanks).

 

If some Chinese person or company over-struck US coins to put an obvious date on them that was never originally issued for that type, and they marketed them as "fantasy-date over-strikes", then those would be "defaced" coins, not "counterfeit" coins. If you took a genuine US Mint 1999 Lincoln cent and carved off parts of the date to make it look like "1900", is that a "counterfeit" ? No. Because 1900 Lincoln cents were never issued, and because it is a genuine US Mint Lincoln cent that has been "defaced" or "altered". But if you knowingly tried to sell that "1900" Lincoln cent as a genuine original to some hypothetical uneducated buyer for a lot of money, that would constitute fraud.

But supposing that some Chinese maker did start producing fantasy-date over-struck coins, they wouldn't necessary sell for much of a premium. Why does the work of one artist sell for high prices, while the work of another is ignored ? There are a lot of factors, not the least of which is the artists' work history, notoriety, and following.

 

I also remembering you say that people who buy unslabbed Trade dollars are at fault because they haven't educated themselves .

Mr. Carr , please read post #205 to see that was never directed at you .

 

About the Trade dollars that was not directed to you but to Morgandude in post #205 .
I've noticed that you've only shown the low end base metal fakes the Chinese make . Not the high Quality fakes that they and others have made that are still in peoples collections . If you're going to the ANA show in Chicago this year , I'd love to show you two Trade dollars along with a real one and have you pick the real one out . One of these I've shown to Tom Delorey who , couldn't say for certain without further testing if it was real or fake .

 

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

 

I agree that there are some very high-quality Trade Dollar counterfeits out there. It is not known for certain where they were made, but China would be a strong possibility. If those high-quality pieces had fantasy dates on them, then they would be easy to spot. But they have dates and mint mark combinations that were originally issued in the Trade Dollar series.

If I ever get a chance to inspect your coins, I will accept the challenge to pick out the real and fake.

 

As you probably know John Reich marked every die that he made with a small scallop on star 13 . Very cool indeed .

 

Bad analogy. Nothing more needs to be said on that issue.

I know I said it, and will repeat it--anybody who buys coins that are "high value" like Trade Dollars (nice EF and above coins of that era are scarce, and go for $400 and up) should ONLY buy them certified, unless they are totally expert on Trade dollars. What exactly does that have to do with Daniel Carr's work? He is not anonymously producing replicas of real US coins that are legal tender, and passing them off as genuine US Trade Dollars, or Barber Halves.

HE DIRECTLY states in writing on his website, (and if one gets the coins slabbed by ANACS, as I have done, the label states TOKEN) that his work is that of a fantasy issue, and is NOT legal tender, nor does it pretend to be a US Mint issue of said coin. His work, which I like, is of tokens and medallions, and that is an entirely legal and separate issue from making a cheap Chinese copy of an American LEGAL TENDER issue that has numismatic value, and passing it off as real. I can't see how anybody with a modicum of intelligence can compare the two--they are separate events. In one case (the Chinese counterfeits), the intent is to deceive and sell an inferior, non-genuine product in the stead of a genuine one. In Mr. Carr's case, he's an experienced designer who creates replica coins of ones that could have existed, but have never been produced, using either his own design, or restrikes. This falls under the collectible egis of collecting tokens, which is a numismatic art in itself. So, my comment about Trade Dollars being often counterfeited and my advice to new collectors NEVER to buy one outside of legitimate certification (and from a reputable dealer) stands, but has nothing to do with Daniel Carr's work.

 

@Morgandude11, would you be disappointed if a tiny "DC" were hidden on the rim or somewhere on the coin? I'm not asking if you think it necessary. Clearly you do not. Just wanting an honest response as to whether that would keep you from purchasing and collecting them.