Jotapian?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Harry G, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    Hi all!

    I saw this coin as part of a lot from a reputable auction house, and it appears to be an exceptionally rare antoninianus of Jotapian. However, the style is very crude, and the metal colour looks wrong (as most of his antoniniani were overstruck, most are silver in colour). Victory is also pictured holding a cross rather than a wreath, and there appears to be a "z" mark in the left field.

    After some research, I was only able to find one other coin like this (bottom picture), that was sold by a different auction house in 2012. This coin has the same crude style, double chin, z mint mark and cross rather than wreath that the other coin has. However, it is silver, while this one is bronze. I was also unable to find out how much it sold for, as I don't have acsearch premium, and can't find it in their archives.

    Does this coin look genuine? As it is from a part lot, no weight or diameter is listed, and there are no returns on the lot (as it's a group lot). I am hoping to bid on it if it is the right price, but don't want to get a fake for obvious reasons lol :)

    Apologies for the poor cropping of the image; I had to remove the other coins from the lot.

    Thanks!

    jotapian coin.png
    jotapian 2.jpg
     
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  3. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Great pickup!
     
  4. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    "Regular style" Jotapian antoninianus for reference

    jotapian 3.jpg
     
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  5. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    A genuine Jotapian is a $5000 or more coin. There is strong incentive to make fakes, hoping someone will pay well on the hope the coin is genuine. Here are Jotapian pieces on acsearch:

    https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...s=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=

    The second image of the OP post is of an auction coin that did not sell, perhaps because potential buyers thought like I think--it is not genuine. The fabric is not right. In my opinion, the first is not a genuine Jotapian coin either.
     
  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    A reputable auction house would not put a Jotapian in a bulk lot. If genuine, they could get more for it. If fake, including it in a bulk lot to pump up the realization on that lot from people who spotted it is as bad as selling it outright. That leaves the possibility that they di not notice it in the lot which suggests they don't look at what they are selling or don't know ancients (if it is a 'reputable' modern coin seller). In any event you will not get a genuine coin for a bargain price this way. You can bid on it assuming that is a fake if you want a space filler fake and I suspect the lot will be sold to someone who knows less about the question than you do so will outbid you.
     
  7. tenbobbit

    tenbobbit Supporter! Supporter

    Can someone do an overlay of the 2 OP coins if possible please.
    To my eye they appear to be from the same dies & i think the Obverse has been altered slightly to give it the appearance of a different coin.
     
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  8. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

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  9. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    Ok, I have an update in case anyone's interested.

    They've replied:

    Dear [My name]

    Thank you very much for your email to Roma Numismatics concerning lot 686 from Auction XXI.

    I have found the auction record for Gorny’s Auction 207, lot 679 and I agree with your assessment that the coins are from the same dies. Our coin is certainly not silver but perhaps the traces on the reverse are an indication that it was originally silvered to look like the Gorny example. We very much appreciate you pointing this out to us. We shall update the record to include the Gorny coin as the second example of this type.

    Many thanks and best wishes,

    [Their name]

    They've amended their listing to show it was the second example of the type, and that the dies for both coins match

    https://www.romanumismatics.com/262...ype=&sort_by=lot_number&view=lot_detail&year=
     
  10. tenbobbit

    tenbobbit Supporter! Supporter

    LOL.

    Ignore the obvious because it doesn't fit their way of thinking.
    No mention of it being Fake.

    It wont be long until they sit beside agents A & Z on my seller list.
    The 2 agents do however need to drop a few places to catch up with Roma ;)
     
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