Featured It's a jungle out there- bad coins, slabs or labels.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Jack D. Young, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. Chuck_A

    Chuck_A Well-Known Member

    Thanks Jack, do they get the barcodes right? I always check, but I'm not sure if it does any good against more sophisticated scams. I found this one in an article on Coin Week along with several more following a few links. Your posts are very educational for me being a newer collector. ACEF-Fake-Buffalo-gold-coin-in-Fake-NGC-holder_image-1-1.png
     
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  3. Chuck_A

    Chuck_A Well-Known Member

    The label is wrong, the scales are a watermark on the originals and not so profound at a guess?
     
  4. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    If those collectors make the conscious decision to not learn anything about the coins themselves and depend on the plastic and graders to do all the work, then whose fault is that?

    Same thing with new collectors buying a $10000 “slabbed” coin for $500. What did they expect?

    The blind addiction to slabs is epidemic in the hobby, and it is the very reason why the slabbed fakes are such a problem. Many dealers promote (and often practice) blind faith in the slabs, so that is what collectors learn as they become more acquainted with the hobby. The problem is impossible to fix since the slab market was complacent for 20+ years, and that complacency will never go away. Much of this is due to the fact that relatively few collectors are aware of fake slabs. I’ve had too many arguments with collectors who insist that if a coin is slabbed then it is genuine 100% of the time.

    It would have been responsible of PCGS to take pics of all of their coins like NGC does so that the holders could be truly verified. But no, PCGS cares more about profit than anything else, and continue to do NOTHING useful to the average collector to combat the fakes, even after over 12 years. If there is no TrueView, the verification data offered by PCGS is nothing more than what can be data-mined off of Heritage, and the counterfeiters know this and take advantage of it. I am appalled how PCGS can call themselves industry leaders and consciously fail to protect collectors from counterfeit slabs for over 12 years.

    Rant over for the time being...
     
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    In my experience, the barcodes have always been noticeably different, but only when you compare to the genuine slab from a known genuine photo. Sometimes, they are obviously different (result of being a reused barcode) and sometimes the only way to tell is added thickness (indicative of being pulled from a genuine image and printed).

    For the mass-produced modern stuff, having pics of the coins is useless because they all look the same in the highest grades, unless blatantly wrong. The holder is generally a better tell, especially if you handle hundreds of slabs regularly. However, using a Sigma Analytics PMV will tell you if the metal is correct, even through a slab. They are expensive devices, but they are cheaper than getting burned on an ounce of gold.
     
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  6. Chuck_A

    Chuck_A Well-Known Member

    I try to stay with the major auction houses and even at that I'm always leary of purchasing a fake. I have been able to trace some of my purchases to years ago and verify them as authentic to bolster my confidence in the purchase, however I'm new enough to not know the difference in some coins and all the different labels used by the tpg's.
     
  7. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the note Chuck; there were actually 10 different cert numbers in the 2011 Buff $50's I am aware of. the latest one was this example and NGC updated the cert ("suspect one on the left, documented one on the right):

    obv-combo-slab.jpg
    rev-combo-slab.jpg
    Updated cert.jpg
     
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  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I have had the same argument about genuineness of ancients in NGC slabs. I have literally waited for dealers to look it up at the NGC site that they do not guarantee ancient coins to be authentic.

    My comments were mainly about the flood fakes of all kinds pouring out of China, with evidently no political will whatsoever to stop it. This tide will wash away our hobby if not abetted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  9. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Really meant this to be a discussion of the subject posted and not political...
     
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  10. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I apologize if I derailed your fine thread sir. I have edited my previous post. I just get upset what is happening to this hobby from all of these fakes.
     
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  11. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    My point is that education and common sense would solve the problem. If new collectors hope to strike it rich on “steals” or think it is wise to be wholly dependent on slabs, whose fault is that?

    I avoid certain areas of numismatics because I am not educated enough in them to spot fakes. I can try to find steals, and that will almost certainly net me fakes. I can just blindly trust dealers/slabs, but I am not learning anything to prevent myself from getting burned. If I decide to put forth the effort to learn authentication, then I can confidently start buying the coins. But until then, I don’t buy.
     
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  12. Chuck_A

    Chuck_A Well-Known Member

    I get very upset as well with all the fakes that I have identified with my limited experience. This is a difficult hobby for anyone to take on and gain experience to avoid buying a fake with so many out there. Most people are not willing to dedicate the time it takes to learn how to tell the difference and choose the wrong approach to numismatics. Posts like this one including the comments from the people here are very helpful for those of us who are willing to learn. To the people here that share their experiences both good and bad i'm thankful for their sharing of knowledge and experience with the community, you can't find it anywhere else. JMHO
     
  13. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thank you; I am also very passionate about the effects of these on the Hobby and dedicate a large amount of my personal time along with a large group of friends researching and communicating these threats to a Hobby I have been a part of 50+ years! And I will try and get the message out through multiple venues such as this forum, Coin Week (20+ articles on the subject to date), specialized clubs such as EAC, C4, LSCC, and local coin shows.
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It would be so much better if you actually stuck to facts instead of these false rants
     
  15. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Then you have the problem that over the past few years both of the major services have turned out a multitude of different labels which makes it even more difficult to know if a label is real or not.
     
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  16. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Why is NGC saying "Possible Counterfeit Holder" -- don't they know if it's theirs or not ??? :mad:
     
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It’s kind of a cop out but to be fair probably how they should. Ones real and others have been faked. The new rifd chips for pcgs will help and it would be much better if people stuck to facts to educate people but a better solution would probably be to say something like This cert number has been compromised but this is the real one.
     
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  18. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    It is rare to get any of the top TPG's to actually state "Counterfeit" on the on-line cert or body-bags for rejected submissions.

    On slabbed coins where there is a counterfeit reported PCGS just deactivates the cert, NGC makes statements to hopefully get an owner to return it for review. In the case of the fake holder they make that statement in my opinion because there is a genuine one out there (the original) and they will reholder it with a new cert number if sent in.
     
  19. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    And to finish up with my post here is one of the occasions the TPG did say one was “Not Genuine”, I explained what was wrong with this deceptive example and it was sent back in for their review…

    1805-ngc.jpg
    1805-updated cert.jpg
     
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  20. Mike Sh

    Mike Sh New Member

    Thanks for all the info Jack. Can you satisfy the curiosity of a newbie and describe what tipped you off on the 1805 1/2 cent above?
     
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  21. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Wow, that is a pretty deceptive fake. Its been a few decades since I collected these, but this one wouldn't have been flagged by me if I saw it on the bourse.
     
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