Is this toning AT or NT?

I literally think that there might not be even one single serious educated numismatist who agrees with that definition. It is literally a license to doctor coins.

 

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"Paying somebody a higher price for sticking a coin in a high-sulfur paper envelope for three months strikes me as pure lunacy and the end of common sense as we've known it."

If you can't do it in one day, you don't qualify for your DOC ( Doctor of coins)

 

One degree at a time. Start with the (oh boy!) B.S. Yes, the Al.D. degree (Doctor of Alteration) does require more alacrity. You know how all the books suggest experimenting with low value coins to understand surface alteration? Well I bought the chemicals, and just pulled others out of the darkroom, and actually DID my own experiments and proved to my own satisfaction that toning silver coins to believable colors is trivially easy. And no, Wizard doesn't sell the stuff, but others, including formerly Eastman Kodak, certainly did. A British concern still does. In addition, some old Kodak literature lists formulas for still others.

My self-education regarding bronze coins is a work still in progress. It's interesting, but subject to seemingly random color variations I don't yet understand. This much I do know - there is no such thing as a copper/bronze coin whose toning is fixed and stable. They are always changing all the time. "You can't stop him; you can only hope to contain him."

 

Ok then if TPGs determine what is and isn't market acceptable. Why is this acceptable? a lot of the coins this seller has sold over time regardless of type look like this. You are telling me these are acceptable? I see coins like this and run away because everything about these screams AT to me. Am I wrong on this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Franklin-Silver-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS64-Unique-Rainbow-Color-Toned/272745901382?_trksid=p2045573.c100507.m3226&_trkparms=aid=555014&algo=PL.DEFAULT&ao=1&asc=41376&meid=a2d344b0e3304c36ba5022154787ee47&pid=100507&rk=1&rkt=1&

 

No, not really wrong, per se. But there IS a caveat on these. They may have looked like this when submitted for grading, but then again, perhaps not. There ARE guys "gassing" coins INSIDE THE SLAB AFTER THE FACT!!! Or, these could be genuine album-toned pieces. I vote that this coin in particular was gassed after it was slabbed.

I just looked at the seller on that listing. That guy is THE BIGGEST coin gasser I've ever encountered! All his stuff is AT. Complete and utter con man. None of his stuff looked like that when PCGS saw it.

 

The other problem with letting TPGs determine what is and isn't acceptable is that they are biased imo. While I could send in the coin in the OP and have it come back details, a company who sends in 100's or 1000's of coins a month would get a straight grade because they do more business with them. I know there is supposed to be some anonymity to them. But I have heard of stuff like this happening more than once.

 

Kurt, I am sure you can guess a use for this on 'sealed slabs', patience , and some chemicals. The seals can weaken so use tape to keep closed. Walmart also has them cheaper and sizes.
https://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Vacuum-Starter-3-Quart-1-Pump/dp/B003UEMFUG/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1500351551&sr=8-4&keywords=ziploc vacuum food bags

Of course I don't use them for that, I use them to desiccate substances.

 

Not really, I have probably had the belief longer than a lot that I was less concerned about how it got that way and more about whether or not I like the final product. I consider doctoring for color to require chemicals or some sort of additive to the surface to create it. If you can just leave something somewhere like on a desk and it happens that is mother nature doing it in my book.

I've seen them take on wild colors quick. I lost one behind a desk years ago, should have held onto apparently but is what it is. The market will determine the value. If people like it and it makes them happy that's what matters. If it is as easy and people try and claim the value will fall for sure and the market will sort it.

 

This is far more dangerous to the hobby and one of the biggest myths. This is what people who can't grade or want to up-sell you say. It doesn't work like that and there are plenty of us that have gotten top grades before or not been penalized for not sending millions a year.

 

I have had a lot of people tell me this and none of them were trying to sell me anything. Maybe they were just disgruntled people who sent them in and didn't get the grade they were expecting....who knows. Kinda makes me want to test this...but not sure how.

How about this one, sometimes when people post coins to be graded on these sites some people reply saying for example "MS63 but on a good day maybe MS64". Whats a good day?

The other one I've seen is "MS63 but maybe if its a Friday and the grader is in a hurry it might go MS64".

One more thing. I don't understand how a coin can be sent in for grading and get a MS63 one day and then be sent in again to same company for re-examination and it comes back MS64. Why would a coin grade MS63 one day and a month later grade higher?

 

Not trying to be mean but have to be, a lot of people think they are much better graders than they are.

I am sure I'll get hammered for this but see the first reply than consider it's based off pictures. There are so many variables there, the grade is right much more than the thread.

Because the thing a lot of people don't say is grading is not a hard science. It is not 2+2 = 4 and a lot of people that just completely trash it have little to no experience with them or outdated.

As to how that could happen, if I sent you a 1000 coins had you grade them then sent another 5 thousand and had you grade those, then I sent you the same back again....Your grades would be way off and anyone who says they aren't is ego or lying. The changes are generally normal ones that anyone would have where value is about the same.

 

1st Off thanks @baseball21 and @V Kurt Bellman for not ripping me a new one for sounding like a "rookie".

As you can tell I have never sent a coin in for grading although I do own a few graded coins. This is mainly because from what I have read over time kinda made me think it would be a crap shoot as to what may come back. Having said that there are A LOT of people willing to rag on the TPGs and VERY FEW willing to stand up for them.

I guess I will just have to bite the bullet and send some in myself.

BTW will PCGS label attributions done by Wexler? I know ANACS will if I send in the letter that Mr. Wexler sent back with my coin.

 

We've all sounded like, and BEEN, rookies ourselves at one point. There's only one shame - NOT keeping your eyes and ears open. Is there variation in grading? Sure. Is it a conspiracy? No. It's an opinion.

 

I've never put much faith in the so-called "seals" on PCGS or NGC slabs. "Sonically sealed" does NOT mean "liquid tight" or "air tight". If you believe it does, THIS may and will happen to you.


Sonically sealed means the seal was created by high frequency SOUND and nothing more. (No hedgehogs are harmed in sealing those slabs.)

 

Yup, this is right. I get scads of grades higher than my fondest desire when I submitted the coins. I even get frequent "70's" on the moderns I submit (coins without a hole in the Dansco).

 

and the answer is?

 

SuperDave, posted: I'm having a ball parsing your posts as if you were talking to yourself, because that's what it looks like to me. "

Perhaps if this poster unblocked one of the posters in this thread who has a habit of refuting his posts, he might learn something outside his field of expertize!

baseball21, posted: "As to how that could happen, if I sent you a 1000 coins had you grade them then sent another 5 thousand and had you grade those, then I sent you the same back again....Your grades would be way off and anyone who says they aren't is ego or lying."

Very true, in fact it even works with just 100 coins (non Dollars). On numerous occasions I've looked at a coin I graded several days before and asked myself "what idiot assigned this grade?"

 

A world in which SuperDave and Insider aren't communicating? Kinda makes a guy take stock of whether ANYTHING makes sense any more, doesn't it? I, I, I'm just not sure what to believe in at all any more. Maybe I'll just throw any and all reason and common sense to the wind and, and, and START COLLECTING TONERS!!!

 

[Not a religious post, but...] Can I get an "Amen" on that'n, my brothers and sisters? (This is why I am a dissenter on the perceived value of pictures in numismatics. When combined with intent, they CAN deceive as much as inform.)

I have a complete '58 set, ex Newman, now in NGC plastic, bought from Stacks Bowers. It never got a tinge of red to it. Lots of color, just no red. Nice coin.