Is this really how low our hobby has sunk?

If I could give bonus points more than a "like" I would for the creation of a new numismatic term ;-)

 

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Oh ancient gurus, help me out on this one, please.

I realize it's all obvious to you all, but help me understand how you know so readily that it is tooled? Realize I'm a newbie when it comes to ancients... Thanks.

 

It says it right in the auction listing.

Otherwise, it looks much more crisp and defined than other examples.

 

Yeah, I noticed the phrasing. I was thinking more along the lines of the 2nd part of your answer. Thank you. That's what I suspected.

 

In my opinion, tooled coin is the same as FAKE coin..But, thats my opinion..

 

Its not that obvious from the original photo posted, but below is a full size image (click on it to enlarge). I also noted others from the same sale, also tooled and smoothed but not all mentioned. Its a shame. I would prefer a worn example over anything tooled. In all my years collecting I only had one sestertius tooled. It gave me a bad feeling inside so I got rid of it. Each week I have to (unfortunately) pass on many coins I would like, but smoothing and tooling hold me back.

 

When I purchased my Vespasian Judaea Capta denarius eight years ago, from a private collector through my dealer, tooling of these types was known but was much less widespread. My coin has no tooling and essentially no smoothing:



Compare this to the coin in January's auction:


The artificial sharpness of the tooled coin's devices is immediately obvious: in Vespasian's hair and lettering on the obverse, and in the lettering, palm tree, kneeling captive, and Vespasian's armor and dress on the reverse. Even though some of the higher points on the devices seem slightly worn, the edges are far too sharp -- this kind of uneven wear just doesn't occur naturally.

Personally, I believe that tooling started to become more widely accepted (at least by non-collectors) when the following coin sold at NAC's May 2012 auction for $90,000 not including buyer's fee:



My dealer, who attended that auction, told me that most of the other dealers who were present agreed that this coin was tooled yet still sold for an obscenely high price.

In 2007, NAC sold a coin that similarly appears to be tooled for $81,000:



My opinion is that avid buyers of Judaea ancient coins are more than willing to overlook such egregious re-engraving in their pursuit of Judaean history. These are coins that a true collector of ancients would not even consider purchasing, let alone at such absurd prices.

 

In my "former" hobby collecting bugs.....these things happened a lot. That was one of the reasons that I decided to sell the collection, and devote that $ to coins.
Within the insectnet community, they had same forums setup as with cointalk, it was amazing to see all the scams involved in the rare butterfly/moth trade. Even in the Drout Natural History Auctions, really rare butterflies would sell for insane prices in AI quality. AI is just like FDC in insects=its perfect dorsal and ventral side/ no repairs=tooling. Then there also was fake data

I hate to bring this up, but now you see why its safer to purchase auction coins that are TPG. They point out tooling/ smoothing/ cleaning/ whizzing/ dipping/ hairlines/ clipping.
They also list planchet defects/ adjustments marks/ die cracks....which should be OK/ since coins were struck that way/ no tampering after....

Here is a papilio lampsacus male from Java now extinct. This one in my coll. was perfect AI. I had a guy from US that wanted it, so I said 5KUS. He passed and got one from Paris auction for 3500 euros. When he got the thing, turned out it had been heavily repaired, so he ended up buying mine for 7K last year. Lesson learned/ price went up too

 

this is why im a cheapskate guys. you just can NEVER tell for sure if its a fake or not, so why dish out enough $$ to buy a second hand Subaru? lol

plus even if I somehow get scammed,im not out a lot

that's way too much for ANY sestertius . I wouldn't even get a Brutus for anywhere near that price

 

Not exactly, if you go thru CNG/ Kunker/ Baldwins/ Stacks/ Heritage/ Morton&Eden you will never get a fake coin. Most of the auctionfirms list flaws, will authenticate all coins up for auctions, slabbed ones are already verified. Their only problems are not enough detailed data/ grading a wee bit on the liberal side. Other day I saw a Brandenburg-Preussen AV Double Friedrich's d'or 1829-A slabbed as a MS-66 described by Kunker as a "fast stempelglanz" =AU
John

 

Sometimes.

Yep.

Nope.

 

i suspect any coin that looks like it just came from the mint..but i'm from Missouri..

 

Ides, your coin is far from original. Like most of them in this discussion, it’s been tooled. Don’t soak it in acetone, a good bit of the coin will likely melt away.

Both NAC coins have been tooled.


“, if you go thru CNG/ Kunker/ Baldwins/ Stacks/ Heritage/ Morton&Eden youwill never get a fake coin.”

This of course in nonsense.



Barry Murphy.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I am perfectly content with my F Judaea Capta. It may not have a 'wow' factor, but it's honestly genuine.

 

I think that this example from the BM is a reverse die match to Ides coin....

Direct die comparison allows us to check what has been changed with coins....

 

And another reverse die match

 

Based on the second die match Martin posted, it looks to me as though there is very little if any tooling on @IdesOfMarch01's coin. (A small difference on the standing Vespasian's head looks to be the product of a slight double strike there.) What do you think, @Barry Murphy?

 

I like the analogy of dougsmit about repairs on coins and humans having surgeries. I think it would be a good subject for a new topic : SHOW ME YOUR SCARS. Who is willing to post first ???

 

In that way I'm completely tooled. Not repatinated though...

Q

 

I will....no surgeries ever, heck I have not seen a Doctor since High School physical/ never been sick a day in my life....probably taken less then 12 aspirins for mild headaches in all that time. Thus in coin terms I would be FDC like this one I am looking at right now Maybe that is the best health remedy....looking at your coins.
Ex: Triton V/ one of the rarely seen coins that made a CNG FDC grade