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Message:: [QUOTE="krispy, post: 1479624, member: 19065"]NUMBERS: Thanks for checking out the link and some of the ideas I was talking that are applicable to paper, including paper money. I realize from this thread that the level of resistance to these ideas shows to what extent this is not the sort of topic commonly discussed amongst this forum and perhaps all of the paper collecting community. While the link to conservation and preservation issues I shared is one that may appear to focus on issues affecting large institutions housing archives, books and other documents, fundamentally, the issue applies to any and all paper. The same issues they discuss can and do affect the paper of paper money. Atmospheric moisture, both its presence and lack of presence, affects all paper. We know that collections are stored in all kinds of different situations, not just specialize humidity controlled vaults, in properly attended museums and the like, but in: homes, in safes within homes, safes in basements of homes located in different temperate regions of the world, or in banks vaults with different humidity controls between other collections put away in other banks vaults. Some may use silica gels in SDBs within banks and others use none. Dealers travel to and from shows, storing notes in bags, binders and in cases. They keep them in their showrooms at B&M shops, take them on airplanes, put them in cars that are both hot and cold under all conditions, et al. All of those and more scenarios present differences in storage humidity conditions and within them the change of the seasons, or dry climates, wetter climates, leaky basements, compromised safes, careless storage, and so on. Add to that time, the life-time of paper, compounding exposure, risks of mishandling, improper storage and things we do not even notice changing with the nature of paper in the short term. Paper does absorb moisture and can buckle or wave slightly or significantly because of it. I illustrate this so extensively to show that I understand the complexity of the factors impacting the long term storage issues with paper, be they old notes, books, works of art on paper, photos printed on rag paper, stamps, old newspapers, magazines, tickets, etc. The big thing we have going for us as paper money collectors is that we care for our notes pretty darned well. In this era, most paper money collectors have presence of mind enough not to mishandle notes by touching the paper where oils from skin and other dirt on our hands or foreign matter can be introduced to the notes where staining and microorganisms carried on the body can affect notes. We also have going for us the fact that we collectors usually store our notes (in this era) in proper archival mylar sleeves or we have them encapsulated in a TPGs sleeve. TPG sleeves even have added benefits like UV protective mylar to prevent damage to notes from exposure to light. Just because the terms in that link do not directly address 'paper money', the paper of books and other things is no different a matter of conservation and preservation that collectors in this context should be thinking about and become aware than is the paper of our notes we discuss and collect. This is not lost on me. The paper of earlier eras of notes remains at risk from these factors, as are the notes entering circulation today. Older notes may be more brittle over time, from lack of moisture as well. If it's paper, the factors discussed apply to it. Books have even more complex issues as they tend to be (intended to be) handled more. Books often have animal hide covers, wood and other materials used for boards, they have multiple types of papers in them, made with different manufacturing techniques and standards, glues, organic and synthetic materials, cotton threads, dies and bleaches used in paper making, and so on and so on. By comparison, 'paper money' has minimal problems to contend with and has been designed to survive, mainly to survive soiling and constant handling, but also the issues that are agent to the deterioration of paper objects. Old notes like new notes start out with paper that at one time in the paper manufacturing stage was wet and needed to be dried. Those sheets are pressed flat prior to printing. The wet intaglio process indeed resulted in more notes that display paper wave, but it is not the printing which causes this. That is the mistake that MEC2 started out making and you just reiterated. So I will try to explain further.  Rather paper wave is the result of the multi-dimensionality of paper. Paper resists being flat and we must artificially press it to make it be that way. Even pressed paper can again revert to a wavy state. That paper is made wet and dried, and on the old notes, re-wetted and printed again, dried again and later trimmed out, a lot can and did go wrong in the wet intaglio printing method. Eliminating moisture 100% is not possible, but controlling it to the best of a print technicians ability was what the process was designed to do and what a press operator was partly charged with doing. The inks used to print are not water based, they are typically a special oil based ink, but with currency this recipe is guarded information so we cannot know what kind of oil or blend of oils they've used to print bank notes. Regardless of that, oil based inks do not contain moisture (water) and thus cannot create paper wave itself. The inks can smear, bleed, fail to adhere to the paper (usually a moisture problem) or show up as another sort of printing error but they do not create paper wave. Oil and water resist but do not cause tension in the paper that measurably accounts for paper wave. Printing pressure can also effect paper wave if it is applied too significantly. Pressure, especially on damp paper (damp paper is more fragile in this state) can stretch the fibers of the paper, such that when the paper dries the contrasting tension brings out unnatural paper wave. However, the main culprit of paper wave is moisture, be it improperly introduced at some stage during and after printing and drying or after the paper is exposed in various environments to elements around the paper object over time. Paper starts out wet, paper money starts out its life exposed to the air air we breathe, exhale and exist in and it is enough to effect paper in any number of ways, mainly with degrees of wave as we are discussing. Moisture plays a huge role in how paper behaves. The other factors like light, which is damaging and causes brittleness to paper over time, and microorganisms in the air or which may rub off from skin and other things onto paper all combine to deteriorate the organic materials we call paper. This includes all paper money. Books start out no differently, no flatter, and while 'natural paper wave' is a very general term that indicates the supposed originality of a banknote, it is not something measured in degrees by the TPGs who have come to utilize it and train collectors to detect for a 'sense' of originality, which is mainly because of past actions taken to press notes. Though, repressed notes can return to a wavy state, due to (see above factors). Some paper wave is to be expected while other paper wave can be natural due to various reasons mentioned but be much more dramatic. There can however come a point at which what is occurring naturally to a note, wave due to moisture in the environment, becomes unappealing to the eye f the collector and may/does affect someones decision to buy the note or how much they are willing to pay for it. Now, this all seems to be a foreign idea to some folks who were quite resistant to the ideas presented, but that's mainly because paper money collectors are not necessarily required to delve to this level of detail in decision making about what level of paper wave is acceptable to them. Similarly, most collectors buying from 2-dimensional images posted on the internet can't even see the severity or minimal nature of this factor that I have been discussing. I suggested originally that a note may be entered into a breathable PCGS sleeve and due to moisture and storage conditions, develop greater paper wave than it had before it went into that sleeve. I suggested that the PCGS holder may not be the best option for some notes, and this I would underscore is a decision one needs to make individually based on where and how they store the note in a breathable holder and the value/rarity of said note. I'm not saying either the PMG or the PCGS holder are better than the other. Sealing a note in a sleeve can have it's own preservation issues. Obviously the two TPGs have their own thoughts on why they opted for the styles of holder they sell as part of their services to collectors. Perhaps not enough time has expired to define all the risks of one type of sleeve to the other when taking into account the various issues with storage and exposure. All paper is always, potentially at risk. However, TPG sleeves, collector and dealer awareness towards care in storing notes, plus the inherent design of the notes all works to prevent the issues discussed in the link and which I raised here for the benefit of people reading this thread. While the risk to our paper money collectibles may appear minimal to some and be nearly imperceptible in our life times, discounting this is to one's own collections folly.[/QUOTE]

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