Is this criminal?

Can I take that as your statement of disapproval of the PNG and ANA ethics code, or is your fetish selectively merely the non-existent ANA grading standards? Granted, I am a self-admitted über-prig when it comes to ethics. I’m “okay with” way less than almost anyone I know when it comes to ethics, and I am a MAJOR critic of them as practiced generally in numismatics.

 

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They pretty clearly state that it's wrong for their members to low-ball. I understand I'm responsible for every action I make, but that does not mean I am to blame when I work under the assumption that a dealer will live up to their word. If I can't work under that assumption, then it defeats the purpose of having an organization like PNG/ANA.

 

If a dealer lies to a customer about the value of a piece, and the customer accepts that valuation, that's on the dealer. Otherwise, you're saying that anyone buying or selling anything is responsible for becoming an expert on that thing first, or else they're fair game for ripoffs. That's fundamentally unreasonable, IMHO.

I'd go further and say that this includes lies of omission, covered by my first hypothetical. Just saying "this is my offer" without saying anything explicit about value doesn't get you off the ethical hook.

If you say otherwise, how can you justify considering "fraud" a criminal offense?

 

I “like” both of those posts, and conclude ANYONE SELLING ON TV must therefore have forfeited their PNG and/or ANA memberships, no?

I don’t buy Doug’s “rap” for even an instant. That’s why the ANA instituted “free appraisals” on Saturdays at ANA shows. Dealers were ripping people off.

But there’s nothing new about that. I don’t buy most of what spews from Doug or Jim.

 

You know as well as I that plenty of the biggest offenders fly those flags.

 

Did the letter include a check? If I get cherry picked, the LAST thing I want to know is that I lost out on $35,000...

 

They can only sue you if your check bounces. They can cancel the completed auction and refund your money but that usually does not often happen if the win has been delivered. Bragging about how smart you are before you get your prize can cause a cancellation. Telling them how stupid they were can cause a cancellation. Telling the auctioneer before the auction happens makes him much more money and either costs you the win or costs you much more money. The auctioneer does his best to properly identify what he is selling and earning the most possible money for the owner and the highest possible commission for himself. You have invested your time and money to learn about your hobby. That lets you know what is possible to buy and that lets you select what you want to buy. Other people choose to spend their time doing other things. While I would never deliberately cheat anyone who asks for my opinion on what their item is worth I have no problem paying what they are asking for their item. At an auction I would feel even less buyers remorse. If you want to keep score count this as a win then deduct all the times you over pay or get cheated by people selling fakes.

 

That's just rude unless they offered you a share of what they got. I routinely do
that and it is excellent advertising for word of mouth to go back and give more.

 

Short answer, no. You did your homework, those guys didn't. You can sleep easy tonight, and still wake up tomorrow morning and say, "I like that guy starin' at me in the mirror'..........

 

I agree with most of what you just said and add only a few things. My simple rule of thumb for professionalism is who gets to deduct their expenses off their taxes.
If that dealer buys a fake coin and eats it he gets a tax deduction. ditto for thefts. If the customer buys a fake coin and is forced to eat it he gets no deduction.

 

No one has ever denied that ideally a buyer should know what they have, whether or not they know doesn't change the fact that a dealer is committing flat out fraud or completely ripping someone off with extreme low balls

 

Goodness no. Not even close.

 

Look man.... Everyone has had a deal go wrong. It's how we learn. Kid puts his finger on the stove and burns a finger. He grows up knowing to keep his hands off the stove...... Thing is, it is up to us to enter into a deal or not. Simple as that. Good Lord the very last thing we need is some sort of oversight. We already have big brother oversight in virtually every conceivable area of our lives protecting us from ourselves. Jeez man... Just put on our big boy britches when we do a deal. If it don't go well, then learn from it...... Or punch him in the eye.... But for heavens sakes don't beg for more oversight.

 

Randy,

Two questions:
1) Are you an ANA member?
2) When was the last time you read their Code of Ethics?

 

Those days are over, that's how you end up getting sued while you're in jail. Yes you're right there's no way to regulate shady dealers, doesn't make what they do right or even legal but unless you run stings on them they'll keep getting away with it.

Of course if these supposed professional code of ethics were actually enforced it would be a start to exposing the dirty secrets that a lot of people already know about some

 

Despite a questionable sentence structure, I wish I could "like" that second paragraph about 1000 times. Our hobby has become a cesspool of unethical dealers, IMHO. I'll never fault any dealer for not being in PNG per se, because their net worth requirements are nuts. But show me ANY dealer who has no time to be in the ANA, and I'll show you someone to stay away from.