Is This Chou Dynasty Ant Nose real?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Neal, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    Several years ago I bought this ant nose money, or ghost face money. But shortly afterward I was told there were a lot of imitations on the market. How can I tell if it is real or a forgery? It is 18x11 mm. IMG_8357.JPG IMG_8362.JPG IMG_8358.JPG IMG_8360.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    SeptimusT, ominus1 and randygeki like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I would like to buy one also and would be interested in whatever answers you get. Your looks fine to me, but what do I know. Any way to date these?
     
  4. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Looks exactly as it should, correct size as well. Kind of looks like one I sold, so my opinion would be biased by definition. Most of the fakes out there are easy to spot. Just look at Ebay and you will be able to compare. I saw a while back a few that nearly had me fooled, but they turned out to be about 3-4 times larger than they should. These are dated primarily by relation to excavations and graves.
     
    Kentucky, Alegandron and Neal like this.
  5. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    Thanks! I feel better already! I am beginning to wonder how much of the ancient Chinese money was really money and how much was solely for grave purposes.

    Anybody have an idea the time period these would have been used for either purpose?
     
  6. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Research is always ongoing with Chinese numismatics, but these are generally accepted as State of Chu during the Warring States Period. Hartill dates them to 400 - 220 BC but its entirely possible they were used as early as the 8th Century BC. These are without doubt currency, though many other early forms may be grave goods (bridges, bells, etc). Cowries were also used as currency and surviving literature records their use as early as the Shang Dynasty (1,766 - 1,154 BC). This of course pre-dates the use of western currency, but there has long been a disagreement on terminology (coin, money, currency, value, etc). It wasnt long after natural cowries were being used that bone, stone, clay and metal cowries were substituted. Again, they certainly pre-date western usage, but one has a hard time getting past the ethnocentrisms of most in the west.
     
  7. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

  8. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  9. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    Great info!
     
  10. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    Kentucky, Alegandron and Neal like this.
  11. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I didn't know that...
     
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    The patina and fabric look exactly as they should. Fakes often look cartoonish, are too large, or look more like polished pebbles.

    Yup! ‘Tis mine!
     
    dadams, Kentucky and Alegandron like this.
  13. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Well, I know I have good taste...
     
  14. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    I don't know anything about this type, but to my eyes that looks like it could be a spot of bronze disease on the left side, a little below the middle. Might be worth probing with a toothpick to check if it is powdery, or just a mineral deposit.
     
  15. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Not likely. I've handled hundreds of thousands of Chinese coins and I have never seen or heard of one with bronze disease. That doesnt mean it couldnt happen, but I the metal composition combined with soil conditions makes for nice preservation. Somewhere around here I have a very boring metallurgical study of cash coins from the British Museum. I'd have to dig it out.

    However, Chinese coins do have their own issues, and the OP coin illustrates it. Often they develop a light or pale green patina which is soft and is easily flaked off (and generally going in rather deep to the coin itself). You can see this on many European ancients as well.
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  16. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Sounds like BD to me.
     
  17. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    I treated a Ming coin with symptoms similar to what you describe recently, and assumed it was bronze disease. It did not really penetrate the surface, so I assumed it was incipient BD. I know they aren’t exactly ‘bronze,’ but they are still made of copper and alloy, so I assume they can be susceptible?
     
  18. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    There is a big difference in what I am talking about and bronze disease. As we all know BD is active and will continue to corrode on its own if left untreated. Soft patina however is completely stable (chemically but not physically. It can be abraded off).

    I took a couple of very quick photos (maybe I sized them too small) to illustrate but I think you can tell the idea. The first is a Wang Mang issue of the first Century AD, the second is from Cilicia in the 1st Century BC:

    Mang.jpg tark.jpg

    These coins are stable unless you bump them about or attempt to clean them. Its not BD.
     
    SeptimusT and Alegandron like this.
  19. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    Thanks, TypeCoin971793! Great essay!
     
    TypeCoin971793 likes this.
  20. Neal

    Neal Well-Known Member

    As for bronze disease, I trust Ken Dorney is right. I have had the coin since August of 2000 and have not noticed the hole growing any, but had not been looking for it. I will keep an eye on it from now on. In light of the information about the softness of the patina, I would be very hesitant to do anything to it unless the hole were growing. I wish I had had a camera that could take a good picture back when I first got it, but the first pictures are yesterday's for this thread, so it is impossible to compare then and now. Thanks to all for the comments!
     
  21. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    @Ken Dorney , I see the difference in what you’re describing. What I had on my Ming coin was more brightly colored than that, came off as powder, and had a normal patina beneath it, so I’m not sure. I assumed it was BD, but maybe not. If it looks like it’s actually eating into a coin, though, I’d be concerned, but I’m terrified of BD. Never hurts to keep an eye on it.

    Very cool coin, by the way, @Neal.
     
    Neal likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page