Is this AT on this Proof 1894 Cent?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Stang1968, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. Stang1968

    Stang1968 Member

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  3. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    AT man. Looks like someone held a blow torch from a foot away. The rim.. the color.. the reverse. Doesn't smell right man.
  4. vdbpenny1995

    vdbpenny1995 Well-Known Member

    I say AT but then I think is someone really that stupid to AT a PROOF indian cent??!!
  5. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    They would if it is counterfeit.
  6. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Well, considering how hard it is to photograph proofs I am nervous condemning it, (I would not buy it either). POSSIBLY, it could be improper storage and a weird angle on the picture.

    Btw, just a quick question. When people say AT, do they only mean toning with the intent to deceive collectors? I see weird toning sometimes I believe is more from improper storage. Would that be called AT?
  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    It depends on your definition of AT. Doug uses the philosophy that intent is the deciding factor in the debate. By that definition, improper storage would not relegate a coin to AT status. However, intent can never be determined by the viewer, therefore it is impossible to use intent as the deciding factor when grading a coin. The TPG's use the idea of market acceptability. They know they can't prove AT or NT so they simply decide which toned coins are market acceptable at the time of grading. Anything that is rejected for questionable toning is considered a problem coin. IMO, that is exactly where coins with absurd toning that results from improper storage belong. They are lumped in with the obvious AT coins and all are considered questionably toned coins. This is the mentality employed by the TPG's and one that is supported by many collectors, including me!
  8. TheCoinGeezer

    TheCoinGeezer Senex Bombulum

    It appears to be AT to me.
  9. gbroke

    gbroke Naturally Toned

    I am not completely convinced it is AT.
    I have seen some pretty crazy colors on IHC's and Lincolns, including proofs.

    Check out some of the crazy colors on WingedLiberty's website.

    Here is a toned IHC from WingedLiberty.
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    IMO, that is a pretty common toning pattern for a toned IHC's. The coin in the link is another story. Everyone knows that the correct toning progression is yellow-magenta-cyan and at first glance the coin in question seems to show that progression. The problem is that the target toning on this coin is backwards. Target toning is the result of album storage where the coin comes in contact with the sulfur rich album pages at the rim of the coin. The result is a progression of toning in which the most advanced toning is at the peripheries. On this coin, the green (cyan) is in the center of the coin with the less advanced colors appearing at the peripheries. Furthermore, there is no toning correspondence between the obverse and reverse. So the obverse is supposed to be target toned but the reverse is monochromatic leading us to believe that someone stored this proof IHC in a Whitman push in album or the like.

    Sorry, but I find the toning on this coin to be highly questionable. So questionable that I wouldn't even buy it if it resided in NGC or PCGS plastic! But since it isn't in plastic, I will treat it like the radioactive coin that it is and run as far and as fast away as I can. It is so bad that I refuse to put a photo of that thing on my computer in order to get a permanent photo in this thread.

    That thing is ruining my day. I need to post a toned IHC with the proper toning progression to rid my brain of that horrible image.


    Notice the correct toning progression and correspondence.
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks for the post Paul. The one caveat, (and a small one), would be I would be careful in always condemning a coin with a reverse pattern. This is especially, (mostly actually) true on larger coins. I have seen manila envelope toning be a reverse ring on large silver and coppers due to the envelope not touching the surfaces closest to the edges, but drooping in the centers. I cannot draw what I mean, but the the paper has to rise up from the side, so when it hits the edge it is at an angle and cannot touch the surface there, but of course touches in the middle.

    The other time I have seen reverse target toning is one sided on a end roll. The edges fold in and sometimes only touch the center of the end coin.

    These are RARITIES, they are not the common occurence. I am simply relating them in case someone comes across one. I hate seeing an original coin condemned as much as a bad coin accepted, so I am just relating coins I have taken out of old packaging before there was a real market for toning, so presumably no reason to fake it like this.

    Btw, really pretty IHC Paul. Is it me or does the 7 look unusual? Maybe its common for that proof date.
  12. tonedcoins

    tonedcoins New Member

    And that many people are bidding... :dead-horse:
    Some kids never learn.
  13. gbroke

    gbroke Naturally Toned

    Didn't mean to get you all fired up Paul. lol.
    Your points are taken.

    At the very least, we can agree that the debate alone is enough to make it questionable.
    Not to mention, I am not even convinced it is a proof. Some business strikes are "proof" like, especially on how they are imaged. It can be really hard to discern a proof from a business strike with images like the sellers. Also, his title says "Proof".

  14. Stang1968

    Stang1968 Member

    They might be trying to cover a bad cleaning.
  15. richc743

    richc743 Junior Member

    It appears to have been in contact with moisture and then dried. Those dots are the obverse look like water spots.
  16. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    That's a shame.... ROASTED...
  17. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Yeah, if the photo is representative of the coin, it is. Nothing can kill a coin faster than water.
  18. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    But if the market changes its attitude those problem coins may someday again become problem free.
  19. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I'll leave the AT/NT debate for others....

    The coin does not appear to me to be considered MA (market-acceptable) by any major TPG.
  20. cdc

    cdc Member

    Except the ebay ad says "PROOF" and not proof. So there you have it.

    I too have admired the many beautiful toned Indian cents on Ebay, real or fake.
  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Medoraman, compare the 7 on Lehigh's coin and on gbroke's coin, they both look low to me too. There is a proof 1897 for sale on e-bay that looks this way too.
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