Is this actually "damage?"

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I hope Fred did get to see the coin. That's probably our best bet for more information. Interesting coin. Did anyone find a thread on this over on CU?

 

Well if he didn't see it when it was submitted and thinks it's a genuine error you will probably see a sold banner on the listing before he even responds to insiders email

 

Besides the TPG, I'm sure David Lawrence Rare Coins (and the owner, if not DL) exhausted any possibility of an incorrect assessment before listing. The coin is for still for sale.... So, nobody is interested in putting any money on it- just fun theorizing possibilities imo.

 

In the same vein as your previous questions, the interest in stimulating discussion from which more accurate theories can be developed....how do you damage this coin without damaging the stars and letters, to the point where the damage actually touches them without affecting them? This is normally a symptom of something affecting the fields of the die, not the coin those fields struck.

 

That was the post that brought me over. It is an interesting discussion that doesn't exist if we just accept the first most logical conclusion.

 

Since this textile toning has been talked about, I was wondering?
@SuperDave is there a possibility that when you change the tones on the pic, and see dimples, could this be in fact a previous corrosion. I was wondering if there was at one time heavy toning on this coin, and it was cleaned (dipped) then "doctored" to look this way? Therefore the "98"?

 

There's too much depth and regularity for me to think "corrosion." From a percentage standpoint, though, the smart player believes PCGS and accepts it as damage, especially when you consider that the problem manifests itself on some of the higher ares of the devices. It's just that, if damage, there are places it should be that it isn't.

 

Actually, the only thing that can be considered corrosion on this coin is the black area which don't affect the "pattern."

 

If we assume that it was submitted under the error service. In this case given the seller I think it would be reasonable to assume that they looked it over for an upgrade or error submission if they were not the original submitter.

 

Read this from a Coin World article:
"In genuine struck-through-cloth errors, the weave weakens or vanishes over the high relief areas."
Isn't that is apparent with the obverse? And the reverse as well?

 

No, and that's the kicker. It's quite clear thru the hair and lower bust, and keep in mind that lower bust is high enough to have screwed up the corresponding part of the reverse strike on almost every single example of this issue.

 

I will be interested in the explanation of the error by the grader.

I'll have to look up early 19th century cloth patterns.

 

Seems to me there are 2 possibilities here:
1) Post-mint tooling to cover up damage, or to make it more interesting, or some other nefarious purpose.
2) Something like Ron's theory, but I would modify it to be clashed through a canvas scrap rather than file. I did an animated overlay to see if the indentation areas line up, and they generally do. More precise alignment would probably allow the indentations to line up on both obverse and reverse. If this is the explanation, then the scrap covered about half the die area when the clash occurred. Here's the overlay:

 

Simple. That pesky 2%

 

OK, the correct overlay should be showing now.

This coin actually reminds me of another coin I studied, a Trade Dollar, that showed evidence of a double-strike. It had great promise, but every time I looked at it with a critical eye, things just did not quite line up. Features were not quite th right size, or in correct alignment. My theory on that one was "post mint modification for nefarious purposes". That coin even had a similar "look" to it. Perhaps there is/was a "coin surgeon" who created these pieces as fantasy coins to perplex the numismatic community?

 

Wow. Those line up almost exactly. Just look at the pattern right behind the hair ribbon