Is this a Genuine 1877 S Trade Dollar?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by iPen, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    I'm not too familiar with these, so I did some digging. After checking some resources for what I should look for, three of the die markers show that it's a type 2 die on both the obverse and reverse. From what I read, from 1877 onward, there are only type 2 obverse and type 2 reverse designs.

    So, I checked the LIBERTY ribbon/banner, and the two left triangles of it point downward (type 2) as opposed to left (type 1).

    Next, on the reverse of the coin, the bottom arrow clutched by the eagle's talons point midway to the number 2 in 420 (type 2), as opposed to the right of it (type 1).

    Finally, again on the reverse of the coin, the leaf extends below the top of the letter "F" in "FINE", as opposed to being aligned to the top of the letter "F". And, the leaf next to it points towards the right of the letter "F", as opposed to the letter "I" in "FINE".

    Also, the denticles initially looked strange, but from other online pics, they look similar. The 1877 date seems to match. Are there any other die markers to help verify it?

    Thanks in advance!



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  3. 180IQ

    180IQ Active Member

    It's purrdy whether it's authentic or not.
     
  4. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    something looks a bit off but I cant quite put my finger on it
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  5. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    This is rather obvious, but to be sure.
    Did you check the weight?
    My digi- scales will weigh in grains (although ive never used that mode)
    So check to see if its 420 grains +/-
    Im not a trade $ guy, but it looks ok to me other than a possible old light cleaning
     
  6. TommyP

    TommyP BS detector

    Pretty regardless! Throw it away immediately however if it's even possible that it has ever been cleaned (just kidding). I'm afraid of Trades myself.
     
  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Your coin is a 2/2 variety. It looks OK; however, if you want an opinion on authenticity, you'll need much sharper images. Sorry I cannot help.

    PS The 77-S coins have two different obverse and reverse hubs. At present they are called 2M and 2L. The reverse of your coin is a 2L. The photo is not sharp enough to ID the obverse; however, based on the reverse it must be a Type 2. I have been allowed to read the proof of an article to be published in the next LSCC Journal that divide the 2M hubs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  8. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    iPen likes this.
  9. HappyHighway

    HappyHighway Member

    I truly hope its authentic. I have resorted to only buying a slabbed Trade from a reputable source. Still don't own one (Though my brother has one that opens up...we think in order to hide drugs).
     
  10. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    I'd only deal with trade dollars in slabs. The whole issue is a mine field.
     
    Dimedude2 likes this.
  11. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    looks real to me and the coin looks really nice. But I am not an expert, but looks pretty good.
     
  12. 180IQ

    180IQ Active Member

    Am I weird for thinking that if someone has the resources to counterfeit a trade dollar that looks passable, then they would have the resources and brains to put it in a fake slab with a real registry # that matches in appearance in any pictures?
     
  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Fake slabs can be identified pretty easily with the overwhelming majority.
     
    Santinidollar likes this.
  14. 180IQ

    180IQ Active Member

    How the... can it be harder to fake a slab, than to duplicate a coin? It's weird. I know if I wanted to be a ripoff, I would be a VERY rich man, but I enjoy working hard for a living. I know I'm an idiot, but whatever. All it takes is one sample slab, and the same person with the coin factory should be able to have a slab factory. These counterfeiters must be penny wise pound foolish. edited. You don't have to be very bright to dupe the people that fell for that trick.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2017
  15. HappyHighway

    HappyHighway Member

    I have always thought the same thing. I don't trust Trade dollars and I tend to trust TPG holders more than the Trade Dollar itself. But it should technically be easier to mold some plastic and print a label, especially since you can just look up the requisite number to identify a coin/grade.
     
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    AFAIK, PCGS gets the parts for its slabs made in China. I believe NGC does also. ICG uses US products and IDK about ANACS. So, how easy would it be for a Chinese company to get hold of slab parts? Hummmm.
     
  17. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    PCGS and NGC needs to get back with the US rather than using cheap labor. I know they aren't broke or anything since they charge so much to slab them coins.
     
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  18. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Can't go back and embed security features into a coin. Labels, holograms, qr scan now on PCGS ect. The slab shell is kind of the easy part when you really think about it
     
  19. 180IQ

    180IQ Active Member

    Labels, Holograms, and, (qr scan?), are easier to duplicate than a coin. Otherwise it would cost more for a hologram, than it does for a coin. Not sure if you were agreeing about the ease of making a counterfeit slab, but I thought I would be captain obvious in pointing that out.
     
  20. 180IQ

    180IQ Active Member

    I don't believe any of the security features are "embedded" in the slabs either. I think they're glued on.
     
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    The font for PCGS at least I believe is proprietary. The label is almost always the biggest quickest giveaway from the slab itself. PCGS does now have a trace element in the slab and for a while had the Dupont stickers but dealers putting stickers on the back of slabs kind of ruined that. QR codes now would have to scan into the right thing and get canceled if a bunch are scanning into the same cert. Making the plastic shell really is the easy part for them. Then there's the whole secure plus thing for PCGS which is another layer of complexity and would make no sense for them to target those slabs.

    The vast majority are older generation slabs that don't have as many security features, that said the label and spacing ect is still a struggle for them
     
    180IQ likes this.
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