Is there room for everyone in this hobby?

I actually don't favor grading things for the most part, so I'm not ignoring your opinion, just challenging a bit. I won't pay more for a slabbed coin either way, not from any service. But if I get one at a good price, and I paid for the coin what I wanted, well, good for me! Nice coin, and some plastic to protect it. Even the Nugrade slabs look nice to me.

 

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I think I may have misunderstood you so I am sorry.As long as you like the coin and you paid for it want you wanted good for you.Just don't take the grading OPINIONS from the lower services.

 

I gotta say, Richard, if you enjoy what you're doing, and it suits you, that's great - but the pitfalls seem pretty large to me. I don't know if what you're doing qualifies as investment technique or flat out gambling. A lot of people like to gamble, so I'm not knocking it - I personally love gambling - but it seems to me you shoot from the hip on your buying trends (from your post about buying x to make y and reselling to get back x), and let experience teach you over time. Some of the best played gamblers claim to have a system, but it isn't a system of investment.

It's been my (albeit very limited) experience in this hobby that large bills do not equal better deals. Even that depends on what your definition of a better deal is, I guess. Some people think a better deal is a more magnificant coin - even if you paid market dollars for it. I think collectors would be far more apt to qualify a better deal in terms of a coin they are proud to own. Others will qualify a better deal as the difference between sale price and the market value. I think this would be an investor's outlook, although I know it's a far more common point of view.

 

I would not look to them to tell me the value (I am struggling to do that on my own... picture baby toddling, swaying but staying upright, and taking another step). But, if I get the coin I want in a holder, I just don't mind it being from anyone other than SGS (I don't like being laughed at, which seems to be the only response to them). I love the holders, all of them, and will use a lower tier brand to get a good price on a coin I like. I really have found that a slabbed coin from some services may sell cheaper than raw! So, I think we agree, basically, midwestcoin. I do, however, still state that many of those middle tier guys are likely doing a fine job, and are not deserving of the stones thrown their way. I don't even trust PCGS, if blind trust is what we are talking about.

 

As I asked originally, is there room for everyone? I never claimed that my system made sense, or asked if others would do it, it is just how I do it. And, it is working, for me. Gambling? All investments are, that is just plain fact. You can buy Microsoft stock, and lose a lot of money. Investing/Gambling... just a matter of opinion. My stock investments tend to the riskier portfolios too, and that should not surprise anyone that hears how I buy coins. Yep, I shoot from a hip a bit, and go with my 'gut' instinct. Which is prone to be wrong at some point. If so, no harm, no foul. No one hurt along the way, and I'll adjust my thinking at that time, I suppose.
Definitions of 'better deals' will vary, and mine shift slowly. Six months ago, I just wanted lots of coins... lots and lots. Now, I still like quantity to dig around, but am starting to really only keep things worth over a certain amount (that amount keeps creaping up) and suddenly I realize I really love the looks of toned coins and will pay a premium for them. Over time, will I likely settle in and just buy what I want? Yes, most likely. Then will it be investing? well, Its still collecting to me, but just something that I think has more chance of long term value, so investing has a nicer ring than 'obsesively throwing money at my hobby'. My salf water fish tanks had a lot of the latter statment in them... but I still loved them. No investment value at all. Now, I spend just as much, get all kinds of stuff, and actually am left with something fun and valuable. Can't be a bad swap, can it?

 

Welcome to the forum Richard.

You have just expressed the philosophy of Peter T. Davis, the Admnistrator and owner of this site.

That's why the Moderators are so diligent in enforcing the rules against personal attacks, etc. We absolutely refuse to allow this forum to become another site where flaming is an accepted practice. GDJMSP's signature line truly expresses the primary purpose of this forum: "Knowledge ..... share it".

Everyone on this forum is, or has been, a novice. Many on this forum have gained a measure of expertise in some numismatic areas. Everyone on this forum has a lot to learn.

Absolutely no one on this forum - present company definitely included - knows it all!

BTW - the answer to your title question is an unequivocal You bet!

 

This is what the forum is for.

 

You mean this forum is for throwing stones at hardworking TPG graders???

 

Nope I meant the forum is for debates on coin things.

 

I also question the hard working part for almost all.Most seem to use monkeys throwing darts at a board

 

I know, it just came out sounding a bit like the other, which was kind of a funny statement. Have I mentioned I have a bad sense of humor (it goes with the insane method of buying coins).

 

Me too but mine is warped

 

Could be. Grading is subjective, so prone to be questioned by everyone. Heck, my local dealer was very honest about it. He said he would swear a coin I brought it was a grade or two lower than I thought if I wanted to sell it, and everyone one he had was a grade or two above what I believe when it comes time to sell. He was smiling at the time. He then said, that's just how buying and selling work.
Grading is the same, I think. So subjective that you just have to stick with it until you have a body of work behind you, if you are a TPG. PCGS has that, so they win. Are their possibly small TPG's that are just as good? Sure, but is that going to make their coins trade at the same values? Nope, because there is no formula that can prove they are as good... it still is subjective. Maybe the TPG's are simply the worst thing ever to happen... I don't know.

 

Bottom line - buy the coin, not the holder.

That's exactly what you are doing when you pick up a lower-tier slab because the coin inside is what you want, and you believe the price is reasonable for that coin.

It's not as true in world coins, where slabbing hasn't caught on that much, but IMHO for U.S. coins the only real bargains you are likely to find are coins that are undervalued because of the slab they inhabit.

 

Well, I don't think we will see eye to eye on our points of view concerning investment structure, but that's ok.

Yes, there is certainly room for everyone in this hobby. Again, I did not mean to come across otherwise. I think that you will find a general distrust on this site for some of the more 'bottom tier' TPG services. If you are one to ignore the slab of their product, as you should for all coins, great. But the truth is that a lot of these 'grading services' are used for the sole purpose of window dressing their product - and that can be a dangerous thing (similar to buying stock in Enron) to the hobby as a whole. Their (sometimes grossly) misgraded coins can do real damage to a new collector - and in some cases, that collector will never trust the hobby again - and that's sad.

 

Disagreement is good! Don't sweat it. But, the question on the TGP's is this: are they all simply lumped into one bottom feeder bucket if they are not a big four, or are we able to 'layer' them with some understanding that there are different abilities, motivations, and qualities of product, which meet market needs. After all, I don't shop at KMART, but I think that they offer a product that meets a strong market need. Are there 'reputable' TPG's that are not top tier, and if so, who? I don't work for any of them, and don't have strong opinions, but some newly formulating opinions.
I like Nugrade for some of the cheaper ($3 per coin) auctions I've gotten their newer date MS63-MS65 coins on. Nice sacagawea's, state quarters, etc.). I find those coins at that price a value. Some were overgraded, but I did not find any I thought more than one grade off. So even then, a fair price for thos coins. I like ACCGS at face value, and like the price of the grading service and the coins I have (a couple) are nice. But, can I state I have a sample that makes me say "I'd send a hundred coins here for grading", nope. Anyone else have experiences that are good to point to?

 

I don't know. I'm not a history expert on the subject, but I think the grading services were originally established for purposes of safe trade. In that, a certain trust for slabbed coins is established.

Now, when it comes to these companies that sometimes sell their own product, I look at it by asking myself some questions first. If the experienced collectors are not influenced by their slab, why do they do it?

in my opinion, the answer is obvious.

 

Hey look me over! Lend me an ear!

Allow me to be the (n+1)th person to welcome you to the hobby.

It is true that anonymity online allows people to be rude and I am as guilty of that as anyone. It is not that I am that way in person, but that in person, other modes of expression are going on, way beyond what you can do with and

Sometimes the problem is just one of misperception. The comment is neutral or positive but is read negatively.

There is also a deeper problem, perhaps. I have suggested that numismatics in particular and collecting in general appeals to people whose socialization skills are weak. So, you have to expect some roughness in communication.

In line with that is the aggression that comes from defensiveness. There are a lot of newbies out there who de-newbiefy themselves by picking on the next newbie. Also, ignorance makes us feel uncomfortable and questions about grading and attribution will not come down to "I don't know."

On the upside, it seems that the longer someone participates in this hobby, the nicer they get. So, you can look forward to that. When I meet someone at a convention for the first time, my first question is, "Have I ever flamed you?"

As for how welcome newbies are generally, I assure you that the American Numismatic Association craves new members because they are new. New people have new ideas on what is interesting and how to collect it. New people are always welcome at the ANA (www.money.org).

 

Well, for today, I am the newest newby, so everyone promotes! Kick away until tomorrow, when someone else joins, and I'll start a thread called 'Who has a great story of the good old days when we were new to all this'.
For tonight I'm just enjoying learning some new things.
Good first day. I like this place.

 

Well, welcome to the board, hold ur head up and screw the SNOBS across the street. lol