Is it worth more now? Eliasberg 1894-S Dime crosses to PCGS

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Beefer518, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Agreed....what I've never understood is how popular the crack-out game is and yet how many times are these veterans and long-time collectors always saying..."buy the coin, not the holder !" :D

    I know, I know...where $$$ are involved, all else goes out the window....:p
     
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    This forum is notoriously anti-PCGS and also a lot more pro some other TPGs than the market it. Realistically this forum nor any forum has any impact on the market at all

    The Yellowstone Super Volcano could end life on earth at any second, it doesn't mean it will. It's dumb to just throw out "but it could" hypotheticals, all that is is negative speculation.

    You might want to go look into who owns NGC

    No, that poster would have minimal impact at best and that's being very generous. Forums have very little power if any over the market and no one would be running out having millions of dollars worth of coins crossed over because of a forum comment.

    The markets set and it's been set for many years now. You're talking about billions of dollars of coins in each of the PCGS and NGC holders, you aren't going to turn the market on it's head from a few forum posters and that's especially true at the high end where if anything the gap has been widening
     
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  4. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Would you include me in this anti-PCGS group?
     
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    you aren’t one that would immediately come to mind
     
  6. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    My only NGC dislike is of the slab that completely surrounds the coin. The white one. Forgot the nickname.

    On some of my moderns, commemoratives, and foreign stuff.....they do a great job and I like/love the labels, too.
     
  7. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Good...because despite my opinion about unique pedigrees coins, PCGS is actually my preferred TPG. But I do look at coins in any slab.
     
  8. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    The “Fatty”? It’s long gone...
     
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  9. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    “Some numismatic experts believe San Francisco Mint Superintendent John Daggett gave many of the 24 dimes to his friends and associates and three to his young daughter Hallie. ”

    Reading stories about how someone at the Mint made the coins to make up for an accounting deficit and then gave them to his daughter really pisses me off.

    How is that fair that a Mint employee working for the government at taxpayer expense is allowed to give rare coins to his kids and basically profit by millions of dollars. Especially considering the rest of America didn’t even have a chance!

    It would be like someone at the Mint today making a bunch of coins with serious errors and then giving them to their kids to sell.

    Or a Mint employee selling American Silver Eagles to friends & family members for $1 each despite the intrinsic value of a Silver Eagle being much more than face value.

    Oh you have a $100 bill? Sure I’ll give you 100x $1 Silver Eagles for it since you’re my friend/family.

    It’s basically stealing from American citizens.

    In my opinion that dime is property of the US Government & American people just like the 1933 Double Eagles at Fort Knox & I hope one day the government realizes that and confiscates them like they did with the 1933 Double Eagles.

    & NO whoever bought it should not receive compensation. They should be given a modern dime nothing more.

    Even if the guy didn’t get caught he still committed a serious crime by giving those coins to his daughter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    And all he had to do to get that price was wait... a hundred years or so.

    The coins were worth ten cents each when they were minted. It was early in the year; according to some accounts I've read, the assumption was that more would be struck before the end of the year. And what else would you have Mint employees do "at taxpayer expense" besides striking legal-tender coins, and issuing them at face value? In what possible sense was this "basically stealing from American citizens"?

    IMHO, these coins are in no way equivalent to the "1913 Liberty Head nickels", or the 1804 dollar restrikes, or even the 1933 double eagles. At least two of these dimes have circulated, to the point where they're in G4 or AG3 condition.

    Then again, maybe you're right, and we should go after the descendants of those nefarious Mint workers who issued the 40,000 1913-S quarters at face value, or the 264,000 1916-D dimes. After all, think of all the millions of dollars that could have flowed into the treasury if those had been saved and sold directly to collectors! And since every one of them came out of the Mint at face value, everyone who currently owns one should be required to surrender it at face value. Or was that "forfeit it with no compensation at all"?
     
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  11. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    First of all it doesn’t matter if it took 100 years.

    Secondly: It was never only worth 10 cents. Even back in the early 1900s coin collectors would’ve paid much more than that with such a limited mintage.

    Thirdly: I never said we should go after the Mint workers. I just believe those coins should be confiscated.

    Fourthly: If we allow this whats to stop Mint employees today from purposely making very small numbers of unique coins and then selling them?

    • There is a huge difference between releasing coins with low mintages and making small numbers of coins that the public doesn’t even have a chance to get. With 1916-D dimes & 1913-S quarters at least the public had a chance to get them. They actually went into public circulation.

    • These dimes were minted just for a high ranking US Mint employee who knew full well that by giving it to his daughter he was essentially funding her retirement for the low cost of $0.10.

    Are you saying you would be okay with Mint workers making say 10x 2020 Morgan Dollars and then selling them to the public for $1.5 million each knowing Morgan Dollar collectors would pay a fortune?

    Or why not just have the Mint start making old vintage coins with a CC on them?

    Or better yet why not just let the Mint take 1000 oz of silver and Mint it into 1000x 1893 S Morgan Dollars?

    Face it: If the story is true it means whoever made them committed fraud and their descendants should not profit off of fraud.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  12. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    Oh yeah don’t forget: It’s illegal to own a 1964 Peace Dollar specifically because it wasn’t released to the public.

    Which means making these 1893S dimes would’ve been illegal if they had held Mint employees of that time to the same standards as they did from the 1930s and later.

    My guess is this dime is exactly why coins like the 1964 Peace Dollars are illegal to own. The government probably didn’t want this to happen again.

    1D144B52-8D3A-4984-878E-61A28E90F528.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  13. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    You're making the assumption that this was all they expected to produce which is inaccurate. Most accounts state that more dimes were expected to be produced from the SF mint before the end of 1894...that these were just minted to get the balance for the fiscal year accurate.

    If the mint director or whomever took a few of them home...I'm certain he would have paid the face value for them and took them home as "new coins" for his kids.

    If they had gone on to mint more as was expected, this coin would not have been special...they just didn't mint any more.

    This statement is proof of your ignorance of the story behind the production of these coins.
     
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  14. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    You mean 1894S, and it's simply not true. 10 pairs of 1894 working dies were shipped to SF, they were legally authorized to mint these coins for circulation, they fully expected to mint more of them, and it just didn't happen. Keeping or giving away "hot off the presses" coins, while paying for them to balance the books, was common practice back then. It may have been shady by today's standards, but don't conflate it with coins that were never authorized to be released into circulation and thus are forever US govt property.
     
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  15. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    Not as special but assuming they were still struck with the care they were they would still be special as Branch Mint proof(granted 6 rather then 7 figure coins)

    The other factor of making these illegal is the time. The 1933 double eagles were crack down on in 1944 after only 11 years. The 1894-S as been sold for over 100 years at this point (earliest sales seem to be in 1910's) and the current examples selling in the millions would make it hard to say the least. Also a few of them circulated which would make the hold situation even more complex.

    If we view the 1913 V nickel, the 1804 Dollar and the 1894-s as the "big Three" the 1894-S is, with the exclusion of the 1804 dollars that were parts of diplomatic gifts sets, by far the least questionable
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  16. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    The point is if they were never in circulation and never got into the hands of the public then they should’ve been melted down and re-coined.

    Or the Mint should’ve at least taken all of them and put them up for auction to the highest buyer and use that money to pay off the national debt like with Silver Eagles.

    They also did that when they found a bunch of CC Morgan Dollars in the Treasury vaults in the 1960s. They didn’t just say “Hey any Mint employees wanna buy these CC Morgan Dollars for a dollar?”

    It’s just not right for the Mint to make a coin with such a low mintage that they know it will fetch insane values and then give those limited coins to Mint employees to later re-sell to fund a luxurious retirement.

    Imagine if today the Mint made 20x 2020 dime coins with Benjamin Franklin’s face on them instead of Roosevelt’s and then gave them to employees so no one else could get them.

    Any wealthy dime collector would pay a fortune for one of those unique dimes with a mintage of 20 and basically it would result in them selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    It’s wrong for Mint employees, funded by taxpayer dollars to use their job & position to make a huge profit at the taxpayer’s expense.

    Yes it is the taxpayer’s expense because they’re doing it while working and using government facilities & machinery paid for by taxpayers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  17. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Just because it’s been selling for over 100 years doesn’t make it right.

    If someone at the Mint today made a unique 2020 Buffalo Nickel with a mintage of 20 coins and only Mint employees received one there would be a Congressional inquiry & investigation into the fraud.

    My point is: A US Mint employee should not be able to use government facilities & equipment to make something for themselves that will net them a huge profit. Or any profit!

    As far as I’m concerned making those 1894S dimes is the white collar equivalent to stealing 5,000 gold St. Gaudens Eagles straight from the Mint vaults and then hiding them for 100 years for their grandchildren to find and live the high life on.
     
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  18. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    perhaps not morally but Legally it likely does
     
  19. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    Come on man, do some research. Two of the nine known examples are G4 and AG3. It's not some giant conspiracy. They didn't deliberately make a low mintage coin. Nobody funded a "luxurious retirement" off of these, let alone mint employees.
     
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  20. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    The point being made is that they were intended for circulation, and there were no nefarious intentions at the time they were minted. You keep arguing the same moot point, making your side of the argument meritless. You're comparing apples to oranges.
     
  21. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Engravers like Charles Barber would get choice coins and/or patterns but pay face value for them and follow government rules.

    Barber got a bunch of nice 1907 UHR Saint-Gaudens and 1907 Saints plus some experimental patterns.

    Nice perks !! :D
     
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