Is it really possible that only PCGS and NGC get it right?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Jim Robinson, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. Derry

    Derry Member

    I think eye appeal is the most important factor in desirability and therefore value. It takes into account all the detracting aspects. Let's abandon the arbitrary and capricious 1-70 system and go to a 1 to 10 eye appeal with pluses and minuses. We all know what we like. We all (except the TPGs) like those toned lincolns and most would rate a 10. There's virtually no difference between a 69 and a 70 except the ridiculous price disparity. Investors are not coin collectors; they're gamblers just like futures traders.
     
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  3. bear32211

    bear32211 Always Learning

    I like your assessment including toned coins but you are going to have those who hate toned anything. I, myself love them.
     
  4. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    That may sound all fine and dandy, but in the real world, the only company "run out of business" would be your own.
     
    Insider likes this.
  5. bear32211

    bear32211 Always Learning

    Isn't that a little harsh ? If so how would you handle coin specifications ?
     
  6. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    He wouldn't have to.....he'd never get involved with such a venture in the first place.
     
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  7. bear32211

    bear32211 Always Learning

    Ouch !
     
  8. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Didn't mean to send an ouchie. :)
     
  9. David Setree Rare Coins

    David Setree Rare Coins Well-Known Member

    Some of the confusion with grading is in understanding what is meant by "Grading"

    In my youth, all grading was of the "technical" sort. The amount of wear that the coin has received since it was minted determines the grade.

    Then came what is called "Market" grading or "price" grading. In this, the amount of wear is secondary to what the "market" would except for that type and era of coin.

    For example" I had an 1812 $5 gold piece that was fully struck, free of contact marks and with an original "skin". It had a very slight amount of wear, really just breaks in the luster on the extreme high points. I told the seller that it was somewhere between an AU55 and an MS63, depending on which graders where working that day and whether they got-----well--never mind about that.

    He was firm on his price and I took a gamble and bought it raw.

    It came back MS62.

    The graders obviously thought that the coin was very attractive and believed that, even though there was some wear on the coin, that it was worth what an MS62 would be on the market.

    Now I am sure I have really confused our newer friends!
     
  10. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    It's a simple observation. Do you think lax standards were instituted against consumer demand? Of course not... they're the result of it. If the majority of submitters had demanded the most conservative of technical standards, that's exactly what we would have; the TPGs are not our friends, nor do they exist for the benefit of hobbyists. They are a business that provides a service, and as with any business, decisions are made with the best interests of the business as job one. McDonald's didn't insist on selling only grease burgers when consumer demand was for more fluffy and supposedly "health conscious" choices, right? If NGC was to initiate the standards the gentleman spoke of, PCGS would dance all the way to the bank unless it was done because of broad and near absolute submitter demand, and that demand is simply not there in today's marketplace.

    On a personal level, I'm a big fan of strict conservative grading standards and am often disheartened by what I see being labeled as "acceptable". However, as just one aspect example, do you think a majority of the coin buying public would prefer to see a huge percentage of their presently "no problem" coins (by accepted standards) instead end up bagged or branded with the equivalent of a scarlet A? For a TPG to decide that many, many coins already in their holders residing in collections, are no longer what the buyers thought at the time of purchase would be suicide. How would you like to learn that maybe ten percent, or maybe fifty percent (or more) of your collection was all of a sudden untouchable? The same could be said for coins that still grade out, but just not to the same level. It's an honest question (to ask yourself), as this is exactly what they (NGC in the gentleman's example) would be doing. To put it simply, it's easy to loosen standards, but once done, there's no equally easy way to put that cat back in the bag, at least without pissing a lot of people off.
     
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  11. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    And then John Albanese resurfaced......but that's another story people.
     
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  12. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Did you just open another can of worms? lol.
     
  13. Jacnum7

    Jacnum7 Active Member

    I have voiced my opinion on this before and caught hell for doing so, but anyway it's a fact NGC & PCGS coins will sell for more than ICG & ANACS coins. ANACS is great for error coins and ICG grades as well as the big 2. I took a grading coarse from Skip of ICG and he is very knowledgeable and Randy is as good as they come. Just the facts.
     
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Skip and Randy, are indeed two of the very best coin graders there are. But ya see, they don't get to grade coins the way "they" would grade the coins. They have to grade coins the way the company they work for "tells" them to grade coins.

    In other words if Skip or Randy were to give you their personal opinion of coin's grade they might well say the coin is an AU55 or AU58. But when they give you the opinion of the company they work for, that grade suddenly becomes MS63 or even MS64. And the same thing goes for every grader who works for every TPG.

    Skip has even written several articles about this, some as long as 8-10 years ago. One was even titled something along the lines of - The AU coins of yesterday are the MS coins of today. Randy was writing articles about it over a decade ago.
     
  15. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Too true. I see attractive coins given MS grades when I can see high point rub, wear even. Look a coin over carefully before you buy so you know what you are buying!
     
  16. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

  17. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    agreed on all points
     
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  18. bear32211

    bear32211 Always Learning

    Question then, even within a company and the standards they set, could one grader give a coin an MS 62 where another grader at the same company give the identical coin an MS 64 ? Do two graders look at the same coin together and decide on a final grade ?
     
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The TPGs have always used multiple graders to grade a coin. NGC has 3 graders who each grade the coin independently, and then a finalizer ( a grading supervisor for lack of a better term) who gives his approval of the final grade, or send it back to the graders again until they can agree on the grade. PCGS uses 2 graders and a finalizer. I can't say that I have ever seen ANACS or ICG publish their exact procedure, but it is assumed they follow similar practices.
     
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  20. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    My answer, as per always, is that TPGs are one of the best things that happened to the hobby. They have provided SOME, and I will repeat that, SOME standardization to grading with official recognition of said grade. That being said, they make mistakes, just as all humans do. Is there an element of variability built into standardized grading--of course there is. Human beings are doing it, and one man's meat is another's poison, despite multiple checkers and parties to the grading. Is ANACS worthless in terms of grade? No, they are not. Are they more lenient than PCGS and NGC? In a lot of cases, yes. However, I own numerous ANACS coins, because I LIKED the coin, not the holder or grade. Hopefully, buyers will use common sense, and not buy coins that they don't like, that are not overpriced, and that there is not a discomfort level with the grading. Consider TPG grading to be "generally" accurate, with some issues to it. Same as building a house--someone's choice of finishing materials may not match up with somebody else's ideas on trim and finishings. It is a matter of judgement, and how one uses said judgements.
     
  21. CeJota13

    CeJota13 New Member

    From my experience, the earlier ICG and ANACS coins were fairly accurate. Modern ANACS and ICG coins tend to be over-graded and also can fail to spot cleaning. I know people that have crossed a cleaned PCGS Morgan into a straight grade ANACS. I don't know why it is like that, but i do know that ANACS and ICG tend to be inaccurate and i would be careful buying coins graded by them.
     
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