Is it legal?

Wonder what condition the coin was in? For an $850 offer the coin was likely VG or better, probably at least $1500 retail. Nice "rip" for the shop if it would have been real.

 

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In my 40 something years at this hobby, I have learned that what is right and what is legal do not always agree.
If I sold something fake or stolen, I would buy it back as fast as possible and go to the person I bought it from.
It's just not right to pass on a problem like this to a dealer or a collector. Yes, I understand this thread is about what is legal but the friend of the OP should be looking at what is honest. I feel I have been rewarded many times over the years by doing the right thing and folks trust me because of it. I'm happy with that.

 

Stolen is another thing altogether. The main problem here is that the "associate" conducted an appraisal. Any business that conducts appraisals should, at the very least, have proper coverage in their business liability (or professional liability) coverage(s). In some jurisdictions, a license and/or bond is required.

In my opinion, this is a form of professional negligence. And this is covered in your business liability coverage of many business umbrella plans, or in a professional liability plan (as this situation is exactly what such a coverage is for...when you as an appraiser make a mistake).

Let's say that the dealer did not realize that the coin was counterfeit (if indeed the one the seller sold was the purported counterfeit) and it was subsequently sold to another client. That client later found it to be counterfeit and returned it to the dealer. The dealer's insurance would likely cover this situation.

However, if the dealer then tried to go to the seller, with the fact that the dealer (or his associate) was the one to originally appraise (and thus authenticate) the coin for the seller, prior to the seller's intent to sell the coin, then I believe the dealer may have some legal problem here in regards to professional negligence.

Based on the facts given, the coworker only intended to sell the coin after an offer was made by the "associate" (sic. dealer) indicating that the coin was genuine.

This mistake (or negligence) was on the part of the dealer's "associate". The outcome (ie the sale) only ensued based upon this mistake, which was made by a purported professional in the field.

Professional negligence is one of the most overlooked torts outside of the medical profession and is mostly trodden under through the propagation of "ethics and morals". In order to know what the "right thing" to do is, one would need to know the entirety of the situation from at least the two sides involved. We do not have that. What we do have, however, is information (some fact, some hearsay, some hearsay that may be fact if qualified).

And with that information, some of us have determined that the dealer holds the liability for this transaction, ethics and morals notwithstanding.

 

So it's fine to sell a fake coin to a dealer and screw him on the deal? I'm going to guess you guys would hang that same dealer if he sold a fake and would not take it back. Is there a third set of rules for deals between two collectors?

Guess I just don't see it the same.

 

The problem is 1) we don't know that he intentionally sold the dealer a fake coin. 2) we don't know that the coin wasn't switched by the dealer or his employee.

 

Yes, I agree. What is right and what is legal do not always coincide.

Now, the rest of your statement is opinion. It is your personal opinion based on your morals and and ethics of what YOU would do. You stated that my coworker should not look at what is legal but at what is honest. That is not for anyone to decide but him. My question has nothing to do with morals or ethics nor what my coworker should or shouldn't do. Its what he is legally obligated to do. Simple. Therefore your statement in irrelevant.

If we were dabating ethics and morals of what the right thing would be to do your statement would be a good answer BUT that's opinion and NOT the question at hand. Like I said before, that part of this situation(the ethical and moral part) is between my coworker and his conscience. Not yours, Idhair.

 

We are not looking at what is "fine" or what is okay to do, we are looking at what is LEGAL. You even said it yourself, "what is right and what is legal do not always agree".

And If a dealer sold a fake coin and the buyer wanted his money back then it would be my first question all over again, which a few changes.

The new question would be.. Is the dealer legally obligated to refund the money?

So you see, there are no special rules or whatever, just law.

 

thou does protest too much..

I'm claiming bogus story until the name of the shop that bought the coin is produced and the tale can be verified.

nice exercise though, for what purpose, I don't know

 

I fail to see where I was protesting too much or for that matter, at all.

I was saying that all Idhair was blabbering about was ethics and morals when what this thread is about is legallity. I can see how you can get confused tho.


And you can believe anything you want kid, whatever floats your boat =] All I care about is finding an answer to my question and I did. Everything else is just white noise, so to speak. hahaa.

 

Thanks for setting me straight Iassidy89. Sorry that my blabbering has upset you. I'll be more careful with your post in the future. Any chance you know a guy named BNB?

 

The point has always been the inability of the dealer to establish that the coin he calls a fake is the same coin bought from the OP.

Absent his ability to do that, he has no right, legal or ethical, to demand that the OP buy the fake from him, that being essentially what he's doing.

If it is established beyond reasonable doubt that the alleged fake is the coin the OP sold the dealer, he does have ethical grounds to request the sale be voided. Legally, the issue is muddled. It's a criminal offense (fraud) to sell something that is other than what it's purported to be, but that requires intent (I say something is X, when I know it's really Y).

As a civil matter, it's even more muddled. A contract, and a sale is a form of contract, requires a "meeting of the minds" to be valid. (I sell you something you think is X, but it's really Y, then the contract is potentially void). Whether it is actually void depends on the state and the facts of the case.

 

The question that remains is, "Was the answer you were seeking what you wanted to hear or was it what you should have heard?"

If you are making the recommendation to your friend that he keep the money, you are doing him a huge disservice, and I would bet that the only reason the dealer has stopped calling is because he is preparing a legal action against him. In the end, regardless of the outcome, it's going to cost him a lot of money in legal fees. I don't recall any of your supporters, here, presenting you with any legal credentials. Apparently you choose to ignore the appellate court decision in favor of the plaintiff and listen to the wannabe lawyers on this forum. Maybe when your coworker amasses all those debts, these good people will all chip in to pay the bills. Haha!

Chris

 

I brought this topic up in my business ethics class. We discussed it and all agreed that the OP has no legal responsibility to return the money. It's done deal.

Ethical responsibility is another matter entirely.

 

It's a good thing it wasn't 1st year Law. You all would have failed!

Chris

 

Suppose the dealer's "associate" had purchased what he thought was, say, an MS-65 1909 S Lincoln cent, and only afterward the dealer noticed the "VDB" on the back.

Do you think the dealer would have tracked down the seller to give him a few grand more?

 

You guys amaze me with all of this extraneous garbage. None of this has any legal implications. Do you think the house burned down because the fire truck was yellow instead of red?

Chris

 

I was certainly enlightened by the court case given us where the judge ordered the money refunded. I honestly believed in the chain of custody and thought it would always apply. Who can say the coin in question is the one actually sold ? I mean, leave the store, break open a slab, etc. Now I learn this may not be so in a court of law. Go figure ? No wonder people hate the lawyers

gary

 

You can't serious. It's an MBA business ethics class. Law is on the side of the OP. Plain and simple.

 

Of course not - he'd take his "rip" and laugh all the way to the bank. Again, this coin was probably a $1500 to $2000 retail piece if genuine. If he sold it to the next guy who walked and made $1,000 do you think the seller and gets half his money back?

Once the deal is consumated, it's done. The buyer was the expert and deemed the coin to be worth $850 wholesale and paid in cash.

 

One case cannot be cited as absolute evidence, they're over-turned, reversed, and recinded daily. In this case there is no record of the sale and no knowledge that the actual coin will even be returned to the seller. It's a he said, she said situation.