Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by TylerH, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I am not here to start a fight. If you read my comment again, you’ll see I merely said I don’t agree when cleaned/damaged coins get a pass.
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    wxcoin, posted: "It's ironic that JA has been an integral part of the big two at some point in time before starting CAC. IMO, I see a blatant bias in that CAC doesn't sticker ICG or ANACS slabs. CAC could easily evaluate them as well but my guess is that he still has a vested interest in the big two. Maybe I'm just too ignorant and uninformed but I either smell a rat or my dinner is ready.

    Actually, you are well informed. Just suppose the big players are like a ball of dirt, oozing with fat, well-fed, brown worms all intertwined. Why bust up the ball? We all owe a lot to the big players who keep this hobby/business going. JA can "bean" a slab from ANY TPGS including the "Fly-by-Nights" if he chooses. There is a reason he does not.

    baseball21, posted: "Happy thanksgiving I’m done responding."

    That's too bad.:( Enjoy the day!

    baseball21, posed: "He doesn’t. What’s he doing to do say here’s our PCGS CAC price and here’s our ANACS CAC price or is he just going to eat it for cross overs for them? One of the more well known auction houses won’t even submit to one of the two you mentioned they won’t look at."

    JA is putting his "bean" on the coin IN THE SLAB. He can do it if he wishes to break the ball of dirt! Furthermore, there are reasons certain companies do not accept particular slabs. It is not all about the coins.

    imrich, micbraun, Mainebill and 2 others like this.
  4. Tusky Ranger

    Tusky Ranger Active Member

    Some evening when I have time...Ill go thru all of this; I'm sure the same stuff has been discussed several times in the 9 pages here. I've only really be doing this for a few years now. With the "big 4" I doubt that either of them grade much differently than the other. I have learned that a grade is nothing more than a 3rd parties opinion. We know today that no one agrees on anything! I think if I were younger (like in my 20's) and just starting, I'd be a little less skeptical on this, but...I need to slab/buy coins that I know I can at least get my money back on. Until things change (lol), I prefer NGC or PCGS, NGC being my fav. I like using ICG/ANACS to buy coins to be eventually "cracked out" for an album. At least I have a huge chance of buying a genuine coin; esp in the more pricey Morgans. PCGS will cross over a coin in a NGC,ICG or ANACS holder w/o the coin being removed. I've sent in half dozen Silver Eagles graded by ICG (and one ANACS) 69's/70's and none of them have crossed over (but at least I do retain the certified coin I started with which is really the only reason for me sending to PCGS in the first place). I like competing in registry sets; NGC accepts PCGS coins. My bank account speaks for itself here (I've lost a bunch of $$). But...I do have some coins that I think I may send to ICG; the prices are lower and...I really just want them certified and put in a simple slab...ICG should fit the bill nicely. Thanks for all the helpful insights here!!
    Mainebill, MIGuy and Stevearino like this.
  5. whopper64

    whopper64 Active Member

    As a relative "newbie" (collecting seriously since 2008), I tend to agree with more seasoned and knowledgeable collectors in that ICG graded coins can be had for far less than NGC or PCGS, but there doesn't seem to be much difference in the coin itself (IMHO). Since I buy the coin and not the slab, and since I'm collecting for heritage and historical purposes (certainly not for investment) I'm very happy with my ICG graded coins. As far as breaking out slabs, I agree that ANACS are the easiest and ICG definitely are the hardest.
    John Skelton, Garlicus and MIGuy like this.
  6. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    ICG is that bad. Consider the coins authenticated, but ungraded for purposes of grading. That being said, I have bought many beautiful coins in ICG slabs. Just disregard the grade, and one can pick many bargains. If you’re into cracking out, and submitting as raw, ICG coins can often be had as bargains.
    Idoono likes this.
  7. whopper64

    whopper64 Active Member

    So I'm trying to decipher why ICG is so bad, yet most all posts indicate that if the ICG graded slab is broken out and submitted to NGC or PCGS that the grade is basically the same, and then the owner sells the coin for a nice profit. If only life was so bad!
    micbraun and MIGuy like this.
  8. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    What exactly is the perception? Is it that coins in ICG slabs are overgraded? Inconsistently graded? Assigned numerical grades that should have been details? Or is it more an issue of them not being eligible for CAC?

    Or does the perception only apply to certain categories like high grade moderns?
  9. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    It is, that most that you will find, are the left overs. The grading is conservative and based more on ANA guidelines than the Market.
    When you find a coin that ICG has given a bump, and not worth the crossover or grading fees, it is then that you will find it in their display. And sometimes because of the marketing you may question the grade especially if the dealer is asking the top price. With CAC not giving these coins beans they are actually undermining one of the respected top 4.

    Let's put it this way, a dealer who understands the business and knows where to put his money, will all ways crack them out.

    I have a question? If you saw just as many ICG slabs in a case as you see PCGS and NGC, would you still have the opinion that they were inferior?
    KSorbo likes this.
  10. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    To your last question I would answer no.

    As for “leftovers”, I have the same impression of old generation PCGS and NGC holders. Most of what I see, at least according to auction photos, are coins that either changed for the worse inside their holders, or are overgraded or have no chance for an upgrade.
  11. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I lot of dealers and collectors just don't care to mess with ICG slabs. Some won't even take the time to look at them. Many don't care to play the crack out or crossover game. Maybe they worry that they won't get their money back out of them or they will be hard to sell.
    I'll look at most any coin in any holder and have found some great coins in these holders. Same with the early green label PCI slabs.
    Mainebill and mrweaseluv like this.
  12. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    This is mostly true of all older generation slabs, their are still plenty out there in collections, I would prefer them in mine, Every once in a while you find a gem in the rough. Even if it is a modern.
  13. Virginian

    Virginian Well-Known Member

    Necromancy thread.

    Anyway, since it's here . . .

    in my experience (not as much as some here) ICG grades tougher and more accurately overall than NGC anyway. I search for ICG coins on The Bay and have found and purchased some very nice ones at reduced prices . . . same for ANACS to much lesser extent. I think a lot of people will only look at or search for PCGS or NGC. Great. Less for them means more for me!
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I’m well aware of how cac works and have submitted there many times. Just because someone could do something doesn’t mean they should. Even the bean wouldn’t close the price gap and it would just make the bean look silly especially on more expensive/high end coins which is what cac was meant for anyways. The price gap would be to wide from one cac slab to another even when it’s the same thing

    The market is the ultimate decider and it has spoken
  15. Joshua Lemons

    Joshua Lemons Well-Known Member

    I have a couple icg graded coins and the grade send quite accurate to me.
    MIGuy likes this.
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    baseball21, posted: "I’m well aware of how cac works and have submitted there many times. Just because someone could do something doesn’t mean they should."

    How true. You could jump off a bridge but that's not something you should do. :D

    "Even the bean wouldn’t close the price gap and it would just make the bean look silly especially on more expensive/high end coins which is what cac was meant for anyways."

    A bean does not look silly on any slab. I saw one on a PO-1 New Rochelle 50c. It would look pretty good on an ICG MS-67 Saint too.

    :rolleyes:I don't think anything will close that price gap. It exists for all TPGS's. That's why a PCGS bean slab sells for more than one without the bean!

    "The price gap would be to wide from one cac slab to another even when it’s the same thing. The market is the ultimate decider and it has spoken."

    Since JA does not wish to make additional income grading second-tier services, nothing has spoken. There is an obvious reason, it's the Ball of dirt w/worms. Astute dealers and collectors buy the coin and not the slab or the bean. If it is in an ANACS or ICG holder, all the better! All you need to do then is get out your hammer, send it in to PCGS and wait two months.
    Mainebill and wxcoin like this.
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Will heritage, stacks or GC submit to such services? I know form their webpage GC will to ANACS for the second tier but that’s it.

    The market has spoken unless you can show numbers otherwise.

    There’s plenty of uses for the lower tier tpgs especially on cheaper coins and ancients and plenty of pie to go around. It’s silly though to suggest the gap is from cac or that cac could turn the market on its head and elevate them and I’ll leave it at that.
  18. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 65 years

    I don't think anyone said anything about CAC being responsible for the gap. Yes, today's market is what it is and the big auction houses pretty much deal directly with PCGS and NGC. But if CAC would evaluate ICG and ANACS coins we'd find out pretty fast how JA and CAC feels about their grades. If they fell in line with PCGS and NGC evaluated coins then that would give a big boost to ICG and ANACS. Like I mentioned before, since JA was involved early on with PCGS and NGC you can't just throw out a perception of bias. If CAC was meant for the expensive coins then they've strayed a lot.
    furham likes this.
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    They haven’t strayed at all, many collectors want it on lower value coins. Could they have said no to those sure, but then people would just complain they’re anti collector etc.
  20. mike estes

    mike estes Active Member

    i have bought coins graded by ICG and im very happy with their work. a lot of people see the top 2 graders PCGS and NGC and automatically think thats who they should go with. i use to think this way until i purchased 2 Washington Statehood Quarters "1999 New Jersey P and D" graded MS67. I went and looked thru several PCGS and NGC graded 1999 New Jersey P and D that were graded MS67 and i couldn't find any difference except for one NGC coin that looked to have less bag marks than the PCGS and my ICG. it truly helps to do a little research, looking over coins graded the same by another grader.
  21. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    We all have our opinions. I once sent a batch of coins in to ICG. Most grades I was happy with. Two I questioned. Some of you may remember the 1807 half I posted that got graded F15. I felt there was to much luster for the grade, and the general consensus here agreed. I sent it back for reconsideration, and they upped it to VF20. I'm still not sure it isn't better.
    Another coin in the lot was an 1883 CC Morgan with quite nice toning. Honestly, I considered it an AU58, it had some light scuffs in the right field under the toning that are hard to see except under a light. I had a slight hope it might "slide" into a low MS grade. I about fell off my chair when it got a MS65+. I don’t think I would get that grade elsewhere, though of course that's just my opinion.
    Another common date Morgan that was a textbook 65 was graded as I expected.
    My opinion? There is a place for ANACS and ICG. Their fees fit better for many coins. I too like to look for bargains in their holders. Just be aware of the market realities, and buy coins you know how to grade so you can verify the slab grade.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
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