Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

I only own a few ICG slabs and am very comfortable with them. All are graded about 1 grade low, all were at a bargain price, I only wish I hadn't passed by a few that I would love to own now. I will always keep an eye out for bargains in the future. No problem at all with ICG.

 

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I've found some nice, properly graded, coins in ICG holders. Unfortunately, some people can't see through the bias towards the big two. Even they make mistakes but don't seem to get hammered for it. As a realist, until things change, going with the big two when selling coins will probably bring you more money. But as a buyer, I look at the coin, not the holder, and have several very nice ICG graded coins that would have cost me much more if they were in PCGS or NGC holders; the coin is still the same.

 

But it isn't just PCGS, it is NGC as well, they both bring more money than coins in ANACS or ICG slabs. That doesn't mean that every coin ANACS & ICG coin is overgraded, but the market will treat them that way. Here is an anecdotal example.

I found this ICG MS67 1938-S Jefferson Nickel on eBay and purchased it for $37.50. The greysheet value for the 1938-S Jefferson is $22 in MS66 and $170 in MS67.




IMO, the coin was correctly graded at MS67, but since the market often values ICG coins at a grade lower than NGC or PCGS, I saw the opportunity to crack the coin from the ICG plastic, submit it to NGC, and make a tidy profit if NGC concurred.



I sold the coin for $178 within 1 month of listing it on eBay.

Of course this one example doesn't prove anything about the grading skills of either ICG or NGC, but it provides real life perspective of how the market treats their grades differently.

 

chascat, posted: "I only own a few ICG slabs and am very comfortable with them. All are graded about 1 grade low, all were at a bargain price, I only wish I hadn't passed by a few that I would love to own now. I will always keep an eye out for bargains in the future. No problem at all with ICG."

By whose standards - yours? Perhaps you are a very conservative grader? Gradeflation? How long have you owned them? Example?

Lehigh96, posted: "But it isn't just PCGS, it is NGC as well, they both bring more money than coins in ANACS or ICG slabs."

Is there KNOWLEDGEABLE collector who DID NOT KNOW THAT?

"That doesn't mean that every coin ANACS & ICG coin is overgraded, but the market will treat them that way. Here is an anecdotal example.

I found this ICG MS67 1938-S Jefferson Nickel on eBay and purchased it for $37.50. The greysheet value for the 1938-S Jefferson is $22 in MS66 and $170 in MS67."




"IMO, the coin was correctly graded at MS67, but since the market often values ICG coins at a grade lower than NGC or PCGS, I saw the opportunity to crack the coin from the ICG plastic, submit it to NGC, and make a tidy profit if NGC concurred."



"I sold the coin for $178 within 1 month of listing it on eBay.

Of course this one example doesn't prove anything about the grading skills of either ICG or NGC, but it provides real life perspective of how the market treats their grades differently."

Absolutely! Thanks for a perfect example showing what EVERY KNOWLEDGEABLE COLLECTOR/DEALER KNOWS: The TPGS, all grade coins basically the same. That's why so many excellent bargains and good profits can be had buying second tier TPGS coins!

Now, back to your claim that I disagree with. In my experience, there is more "crap" in PCGS slabs (for various reasons) than found in ANACS or ICG slabs. MUCH MORE.

 

I can post and example that will throw your statement of "the TPGs, all grade coins basically the same" if you would like.

PCGS grades more coins, so it would stand to reason that they make more mistakes. That really isn't what we are discussing. To me, this whole issue hinges on why the market values ICG & ANACS graded coins lower than NGC & PCGS graded coins. It can't simply me marketing magic. Furthermore, I remember a time when ANACS slabbed coins were considered on par with both NGC & PCGS. Those old soap bar slabs of ANACS didn't take the same backseat that the current ANACS does, so why is that?

 

A recent topic came up which I've had time to ponder...What percentage of NGC and PCGS coins are improperly assigned a grade? I compare my slabs with the like and would go as far as 20% are both over or under graded leaving 60% properly graded. I don't claim to be a professional grader, but I've been taught by many of you in this Forum most of what I've learned and consider myself far more educated in grading than before joining this Forum.

 

Lehigh96, posted: "I can post and example that will throw your statement of "the TPGs, all grade coins basically the same" if you would like.

You can?

News flash: If I let my seminar students give the examples you suggest it would turn a 3-day session into one hour on the third day for any instruction by me.
Of course you know that we can find examples of under-graded, over-graded, and correctly graded (in our opinion) coins in every grading service slab.

"PCGS grades more coins, so it would stand to reason that they make more mistakes. [ Yes, that is one of the "various reasons" I alluded to above.] That really isn't what we are discussing. To me, this whole issue hinges on why the market values ICG & ANACS graded coins lower than NGC & PCGS graded coins. It can't simply me marketing magic. Furthermore, I remember a time when ANACS slabbed coins were considered on par with both NGC & PCGS. Those old soap bar slabs of ANACS didn't take the same backseat that the current ANACS does, so why is that?"

Asked and answered by you already. The demand accelerated by marketing & dealer associates. The opinion/promotion of the top two TPGS by a knowledgeable numismatist (YOU) is just another example of "marketing." That's why high value coins go to the top two services.

It has nothing to do with the coins inside the slab EXCEPT the only high power coins I get to see anymore ($5K to 30K) are the C/F, repaired, and altered problem coins that IGNORANT coin dealers try to pass on us!

 

It depends on who's grading standards you are using. From what I've gathered from the more knowledgeable members in this forum is that grading standards have evolved/devolved at the big two since their inception so that number can be arguably subjective. I definitely don't consider myself an expert when it comes to grading; more likely a novice.

 

That's exactly why you need to be the final judge of what's in the holder and not take it for granted that the grade on the holder meets your expectations.

 

I'm not talking about an example of an overgraded coin, they reside in every slab. I'm not even talking about a problem coin that wasn't caught, they also reside in every slab. I'm talking about a grade so egregiously bad that it hurts the reputation of the grading company. To use a basketball analogy, I'm not talking about clanking one off the rim, or throwing a brick at the backboard. No, I am talking about an air ball that came up 5 feet short. Now you might say that doesn't prove anything, pointing to the difficulty of the shot. Well this grader came up 5 feet short on a free throw. There simply is no earthly reason for the grader to miss the grade by this much.

None of this explains how ANACS used to be at the same reputation level as NGC & PCGS, but no longer enjoys that parity.

I personally thought that DLRC was going to make a run at PCGS & NGC when they bought the PCI inventory and started Dominion Grading Service (DGS), but it seems the market will only accept a grading superstar to enter the grading world and succeed. Who is the superstar at ICG or ANACS?

 

Since you used the basketball analogy, does Lebron grade coins?

 

If he does, I'm sure the company is based out of China.

 

Look, just one person's opinion on the subject. There's a few reasons for the perception hierarchy of the grading companies.
PCGS only allows PCGS coins into the registry sets. NGC allows PCGS coins in their registry sets.
Neither company allows for any other companies slabs in the registry sets.

PCGS and NGC have membership fees also. ANACS and ICG do not have memerships. I think this membership thing gives the impression of exclusivity.
Also PCGS and NGC don't grade everything as far as varieties go. They are selective, this also give the impression of exclusivity.

In my opinion this sets up a perception that PCGS is better than NGC, and NGC is better than ANACS Or ICG whether real or imagined.

Ebay only has eBay-approved grading companies NGC, PCGS, ANACS, ICG.
Which draws the line on anyone else basically even a new upstart. This again adds to the perception and I don't think the order of the companies is on accident either, fairly certain Ebay is getting something out of it to get this order of companies, it's always listed in this order by them.

Now from a slab perspective, I think ICG and ANACS have cheaper appearing slabs. Both companies could use a branding facelift. Still this likely doesn't change anything, the heirarchy has already been well established.
Even with a name change I don't think it levels the playing field, in fact I think it would make it even worse.

I think it''s honestly the registry set competitions and then straight up marketing and branding and evolving over time to nice looking slabs and that gets them where they are. But just my opinion.

It's market perception. The perception is PCGS and NGC grade great and ANACS and ICG don't. They all make hits and misses, but I think between the membership fee, the registry sets, and the nicer slabs, it gives the appearance of higher quality or exclusivity or something that seals their spot at the top for the general public.

Just my opinion on it.

 

All the TPGs make hits and misses in both directions...the problem is that because PCGS and NGC bring higher prices to a large extent any properly and to even a greater extent undergraded coins in ANACS or ICG are promptly snatched up and crossed into PCGS/NGC holders leaving only the dogs in their original slabs. This propitiates the difference that average buyers see between the companies.

 

I have few issues with ICG, they are great at authentication, but their grading... not so much but the main issue is that the pcgs or ngc graded coins carry a higher premium or more simply said... the same coin in an icg holder would sell for say 100 the same exact coin put in a pcgs holder might grab 150-200. Why? IDK to be honest I trust ICG coins to be authentic... but as i said their grading is not so great As for ANACs... I honestly prefer them as they will grade almost any coin or variety of coin.. pcgs and ngc will not grade morgans vams that are not top 100, and many other varities and errors don't appear on their lists... ANACs does ALL even if their gradeing is a little sloppier then NGC/PCGS

 

To me it’s all about money. I’ll buy quality coins in icg anacs pci and other slabs. Andcrack em and send em to pcgs

 

I use NGC by choice, but one of the few coins i have sent in the past was an 1890 VAM 15A. it had been on the books for 2-3 years I bought it as a bu 1890p for just about melt then and after long hard search I figured out the VAM myself and only ANACs would certify it (#23) but then again i will never sell this coin.. and r-6 i found nope nope nope and while not the highest grade it is the only certified 15a AU55 (sorry is one of my 3 favorite coins lol)

 

i have lots of icg slabs as pcg and ncg lots of these are in older cases . first thing i dont care about what the coin is worth. would never ever crack open a slabbed coin for recertification i get the coins because i am a collector not in it for profit my grand kids get them free so if they decide to keep or sell they will be the winners over 50 years collecting

 

For those members who do not know, I work at ICG. I have worked at ANACS and NGC and NCS in the past. When I worked at PCI - the fist TPGS to slab problem coins, dealers would come to our table at every show to brag how they got one of our problem coins straight graded at either PCGS or NGC. They wanted us to lower our standards. They said they love to buy the PCI red label (details) coins.

Lehigh96, posted: "I'm not talking about an example of an overgraded coin, they reside in every slab. I'm not even talking about a problem coin that wasn't caught, they also reside in every slab. I'm talking about a grade so egregiously bad that it hurts the reputation of the grading company."

These exist! Every TPGS does it. I'm not talking about the AU's graded MS-63 either. Graders are not perfect. That's why more than one are on each coin. I have looked at a coin in our slab during the QC check and thought who in the world graded this! When I checked the computer, I was #1 grader on the coin. Usually, after a discussion, I see why others agreed with MY FIRST IMPRESSION of the coin and the grade was not changed. Other times it is. I don't net grade.
AFAIK everyone at every TPGS does to some extent. This could be one of the causes for the obvious mistakes you see.

Lehigh96 continued: None of this explains how ANACS used to be at the same reputation level as NGC & PCGS, but no longer enjoys that parity.

What are you smoking. As soon as PCGS & NGC came along, they sucked all the older services dry. Collectors loved ANACS but most of the big dealers switched to PCGS - reputation level be damned. The longtime ANACS graders are on par with anyone. IMO, ANACS is still around because they have a loyal customer base, large orders for the TV, cheap fees, excellent attribution and good customer service.

Lehigh96 continued: "I personally thought that DLRC was going to make a run at PCGS & NGC when they bought the PCI inventory and started Dominion Grading Service (DGS), but it seems the market will only accept a grading superstar to enter the grading world and succeed. Who is the superstar at ICG or ANACS?"

Good question. I guess I have a higher opinion of a grading "superstar" than you do. Otherwise, I would consider YOU to be a grading "superstar." I think everyone reading your post would like to know who you consider to be the grading "superstars" at the major services. Hopefully, you will answer my question this week.

mrweaseluv, post: 5146611, member: 40340"]I have few issues with ICG, they are great at authentication, but their grading... not so much but the main issue is that the pcgs or ngc graded coins carry a higher premium or more simply said... the same coin in an icg holder would sell for say 100 the same exact coin put in a pcgs holder might grab 150-200. Why? IDK to be honest I trust ICG coins to be authentic... but as i said their grading is not so great As for ANACs... I honestly prefer them as they will grade almost any coin or variety of coin.. pcgs and ngc will not grade morgans vams that are not top 100, and many other varities and errors don't appear on their lists... ANACs does ALL even if their gradeing is a little sloppier then NGC/PCGS.

Just to catch you up to what has peen going on for over a decade...ICG grades everything ANACS does including an occasional ancient. I agree that the top two services NEED TO do the same. Otherwise their claim to be the best is a little weak!

 

I have found some nice coins accurately graded by ICG. Wonder why eBay doesn't recognize this company. Any answers appreciated.