Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

If I get to pick the specific coins used, I could “prove” that PCGS is the worst, then NGC, then ICG, then ANACS, and NNC is the “bery bestest” of all. That doesn’t make it a representative sample. I see lots of slabs, but I own many fewer, and the number I look at closely is a number in between. I own an undergraded Franklin half in an NNC. Yep, that by itself makes it rare. I fervently believe that among “main sequence” coins, all four top firms are VERY similar. The differences emerge in how they treat a “golly that’s an unusual look” coin. These are things that get highly subjective. Every firm makes errors, every one of them. You can go to ANY major show and ask ANY dealer to show you an overgraded coin and an undergraded coin in their opinion, and 90%+ will be able to do exactly that, IN THEIR CASE. Some of these dealers are specialists in one series.

It is the market as a whole that assigns a relative value to various slab brands by “voting with their money”. You don’t have to agree, but you don’t get to change the prevailing opinion either.

 

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/raises hand indicating agreement

 

Now that has to be a mechanical error...

 

The coins you collect primarily reside in PCGS plastic, so yes, of course you are going to see more cleaned coins graded by PCGS. That doesn't mean that they grade more cleaned coins on a % basis than ANACS.

Nobody is saying that PCGS is perfect, but you are insinuating that ANACS are actually better graders than PCGS, and that simply isn't true.

 

When I ask him to prove that PCGS straight grades cleaned coins more often than ANACS, saying that ALL TPGS do it doesn't not end the debate. Keep in mind that I agree that cleaned coins get through all TPGs, but IMO, dipping is cleaning. The key word is "harshly" and the interpretation of that word is subjective.

 

One will never know which TPG grades best. Given the subjective nature of grading it's virtually impossible to quantify.

 

I will go with the scoreboard, the one that drives the highest prices for the grade has the best reputation, and is therefore, the best grading company.

If you are selling coins, it seems very quantifiable to me.

 

But that doesn't prove who's actually doing the best job of grading. Many people give PCGS slack since their slabbed coins generally have higher sale prices (not true for some series). It's this false sense of security that can result in not getting the best coin for your money. As has been repeatedly mentioned here on CT, buy the coin, not the holder. If you're going to spend big money do your homework first.

 

chicken-n-egg argument

 

I like my chicken fried and my eggs sunny side up!

 

But I also look at the same coins in ANACS holders as well. That is where I made my observation about ANACS and PCGS regarding cleaned coins.

The numbers ANACS assigns are less consistent, but they consistently straight-grade fewer damaged coins. The definition of “better” depends on which aspect is more important to you.

 

Please prove that isn't true? And, define the standards that you will be using?

 

Not exact numbers but to make the point you need to think of it relatively. Something like 25 cleaned coins in a PCGS slab would be a lower percentage of the series graded then 2 in an ANACS slab would be for a lot of classic series especially if you're talking about high/higher end coins.

Not in my experience. They're just as inconsistent with that from the submissions I had sent them before I stopped using them entirely last year. I'd use any of the other three eBay ones over them any day.

If you're going to spend big money (which I will define as $1500 or more) on a coin your first question should be why isn't this in a PCGS holder where it would be more liquid and sell for more or at the very least an NGC one. The ability to use CAC on big money coins is more than worth the cross over fee.

Simple facts like that are why @Lehigh96 and I find that saying to be so misinformed. It's really a cutesy kind of demeaning saying implying superiority. Everyone buys what they like and the coin is what drives the holder, but the holder absolutely matters especially at the high end as the professional opinion carries weight in the market.

 

Nah. It just means they are the most popular. Marketing does magical things.

 

The graders - the long-time experienced ones at the major grading services are all good. They must grade to company standards. As for who's best...that's something you'll need to decide for yourself. As one member wrote, it's hard to beat a PCGS slab with a CAC sticker no matter what you think of the actual coin.

One thing to consider is that some of the graders at the lower tier services have been on the job longer than the graders at the top two services. Coin grading has taken a very winding path since the 1970's that leads up to the present time. If I had to make a bet, I'd say the long-time graders at ICG and ANACS tend to be more old school as they were grading coins for years when the standards were much tighter. That's why IMO, most of you here would agree more often with the grade assigned to a coin by ICG or ANACS.

There is also the # of coins graded a week that enters into the equation. Plus if any of you think that a very experienced professional grader is going to catch over 90% of the problems on a coin using their eyes or minimal magnification I have a bridge to sell you. That's why there is more than one person on a coin and stuff still is missed. Problem coins are straight graded because they are market acceptable and have eye-appeal.

You should see the crap the big guys try and get past ICG. Dozens today alone valued in the four and five figures. Best example from today (I'm putting it in my Numismatic News column) was a Capped Bust 50c with very light toning that looked like an MS-64+ as I removed it from the flip. While I debated a 64 or 64+ I moved it onto the scope w/fluorescent light and BOOM! It had a fairly good repaired field that IMO would pass at least 80% of the collectors/dealers. It's the kind of coin that we get calls on. "I've shown this to four dealers and they don't see anything! LOL. So its a 3/4 natural "gem" and a 1/4 "trap" for the unknowing. How about naked eye
MS-66 looking Liberty gold - that is mark free yet lightly buffed in such a manner that 90% would miss it. These coins are in MS-64 slabs. I've warned folks before. Don't think you know more than the graders. Most of the time there is a reason that "perfect" coin is not graded higher.

 

Some people have to learn the hard way

 

Why don't TPG'S give notes with each coin graded explaining the reason for the grade? Like the example @Insider just gave. Seems that would reduce a lot of frustration people have upon getting their coins back. I mean, when we had a test "graded" at school we were always able to see why we got the grade we did.

 

Because it takes time

 

It reduces time on the customer service end and would instill more confidence in the grading, which is good for business.

 

Yes, but that extra time would instill confidence and build customer retention.
The current process in Insiders own example anticipates dissapointment and alienates the customer. If I got the coin back from the TPG with an explanation I would feel my money was well spent and be very confident about sending them more coins. Would it really be more than 30 seconds and a post it note? Or develop a simple footnote system the employees can plug in. Just my .02