is grading inflation a big problem with U.S. coins?

That's a really good way to put it, Randy Abercrombie.


Justinian II - 685-695, 705-7011 - AE Follis - 2.84g Sear 1445 Ravenna Year 21 Ex: Harlan J. Berk.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but this was my most expensive coin of 2023. I've always loved the Ravenna mint and while one will find many examples of the first reign on acsearch (although few in general trade), the second reign is super rare to come across.

Justinian II won Totalus Rankiums (a podcast) award of most interesting Roman emperor. His story is like an adventure novel, enabling him to beat out the great Aurelian for #1.

After being deposed, his nose chopped off, and sent into exile, he managed to escape and with Stupid Paul(!) and a small band, he escaped and came back to power. He set his foot on the necks of Tiberius III(the guy on the gold coin) and Leontius, while the crowd bayed for their blood. Justinian II had gone off the deep end and was only concerned with revenge for the second reign.

Ravenna was the site of one such massacre. His agents came out with giant picnic baskets, and lured the nobles of Ravenna out. Having concealed knives in the baskets, the nobles were massacred and Ravenna sacked.

Justinian II was later beheaded by a general whose family he had massacred. Really epic stuff. I deeply recommend looking up the relevant Totalus Rankium podcast (apple podcasts).

The coin's small and ugly, but rare and packed with history. It could have witnessed the 'special' picnic.

The coin also was on an adventure, coming a couple of mm. away from being destroyed by Post Office machinery. 2 of the 3 Priority packages have been damaged in some way, so I always send a letter to a new dealer about not sending Priority. I'm lucky HJB had sold the large Constantine IV follis I wanted. It would have been destroyed.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Gosh, I don't know. I collect for the pleasure.

I guess for giggles, aXF by wear (although it's probably higher than that, by wear)? VF by 1990 standards. A 1930's catalog would have been less than that. (edit: I changed that to XF by wear).

What did you think of my grading scale (the pictures of my coins)? A bit too harsh?

I was on a Byzantine kick over the summer. I was on the lookout for oversized 7th century coins,and this fit the bill.


It's a whopping 36mm. The dealer attributed it to Constantinople, but I believe it's from Nikomedia. The style, and I'm pretty sure it says ..IKO.

The coin is also quite attractive, for the type. It was actually in the top 10 of personal satisfaction coin purchases from 2023.

 

aXF by wear per the Philip Ant was probably too conservative, looking at the reverse. XF by wear.

I'm sure it's a pretty darn impressive coin in hand! Wonderful! The mint goof wouldn't greatly bother me.

You know what really bugs me? When a listing leaves out whether there's BD or not. Other than super-obvious cases, sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's verdigris or BD. I took such a risk with an Anastasius (which had a chin cone, due to an error!). The spot, which had been bright green on the picture, was dark, stable verdigris. I usually shy away if there's a doubt.

 

The guy who graded that piece gVF, which I guess is EF by U.S. standards, really needs a course in grading, based upon the pictures. The coin has full mint luster, and I can't see any wear on it. It dull outside of the area where the die struck it, but that's to be expected.

Many years ago, before third party grading, there used to be a marketing strategy, "Under grade, over price." That's what looks like was in play with the gVF grade.

 

A single grade would not be adequate for that piece. I think the technical grade is Mint State. After saying that, you would have to say double struck which crushed the wording on the right side. For that reason, I would tend to avoid that piece, because I like coins that show all of the wording.

 

I paid the highest price I have ever paid for ancient coin for this piece by a wide margin. It is a Gordian II denarius, which is a tough coin. Gordian I and Gordian II were co-emperors for two weeks. Their coins were probably made for longer than that, but the period during which they were made was probably no more than a couple months.

NGC graded this AU. I think that the grade is one the money, but probably more ancient and European collector would never use the term.

My picture



Heritage pictures



Here's my Gordian I, which was bought from an ancient dealer who sets up at the major shows. My grade would be Choice VF, hair below EF.

 

I guess numiscorner ditched the grades in their descriptions. I trawled through the Byzantine page, trying to find an example.

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/nu...arthage__copper_sear1055/1247818/Default.aspx

I've seen listings where something like that was graded VF. Their Byzantines tend to have ugly surfaces.

CNG is a pretty respected, high-end ancients dealer. I'd say both johnmilton and CNG are correct; it depends on what grading scale one uses, old or new.

For example, on numisforums I had posted a Solidus which I called XF (by wear it was probably AU, with mirror-like surfaces), but someone pointed out that (conservative version) Extremely fine would be something with a near perfect strike.

That being said, the Justinian I in question is a much better than normal tremissis, worthy of almost any collection. The Tyrant Collection (hedge fun billionaire who has ALL the emperors) might go ewww, but 99.99% of collectors would be quite pleased with it.

We're engaged in a fun, theoretical discussion. Most collectors of ancients are just happy with that particular coin, no matter what grade's slapped on it. Aaron Berk pointed out that he'd rather have an Alexander the Great tetradrachm in VF with beautiful die work than a 'lustre-bomb' (his term) in minty condition, but with a lousy style.

It also circles back to my point that ancients are much tougher to grade. There's a lot of gray areas.

 

Gordian II is a wonderful addition to any collection! Very nice!

Well, I have to get ready for family festivities. I'll check in later.

It's amazing how much cheaper ancients are, relatively speaking. It's out of my price range, but an iconic Priscus Attalus huge silver medallion went for 'only' about $60,000. Priscus Attalus is super-rare, super historical (the sack of Rome) and that particular coin was found in the 1700's, secreted in a disused sewer pipe.

 

How does my C. Annius & L. Fabius Hispaniensis denarius compare to your example in terms of grade?

 

I almost missed your question; I was about to mark the whole forum as read. I'd say yours is a lovely good VF. I do happen to have one, and while it has attractive toning, it's not as nice as your splendid example.

I really only use grades nowadays for my excel sheet. I'm not Mr. Gradesalot.

My original point was just that some vcoins dealers have gotten a bit silly with their stated grades.

 

The Vcoins dealer I bought my denarius from, Gert Boersema, described the coin as grading VF. I was quite disappointed with the coin in hand as it doesn’t have the attractive toning that was shown in the seller’s photo.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, I was also unsure of the coin's toning from the picture.

Mine is pretty close to the picture. I bought it for the toning. My excel sheet indicated that I called it aVF. Mine's a bit more worn, has lamination on the reverse, etc.







This was one of my Christmas presents. While I enjoyed both of them, I preferred the raw Rhodian drachm (my coin photography is horrible). It's VF and toned. The slab denarius is blast white and I graded it VF/F+. The obverse could squeak by as qualifying for David Van Meter's VF (the NGC picture hides the wear in the beard and above the ear). The reverse is a little worn.

 

Nero (Caesar, 50-54). AR Denarius (19mm, 3.23g, 12h). Rome, AD 51. Bareheaded and draped young bust l. R/ Simpulum above tripod; on r., lituus above patera. RIC I 77 (Claudius); RSC 312. Near VF

This coin, which I regret buying, (I bought it only because I didn't realize that denarii of Nero as Caesar were more affordable than denarii of Claudius, and I didn't want to spend much on Nero as Caesar). It perfectly represents grading inflation. Is that Near VF? I graded it aVG.

The coin's sad ending. Lesson: don't send a coin overseas in a floppy mailer, without a cardboard coin protector, or equivalent. A vcoins dealer should know better. I was livid when I discovered it like this.




The strange part is that there wasn't any super-obvious bend/damage in the package or the flip itself. The Philip provincial Sestertius was fine.

 

Yup!

The sad thing is, many vcoins' listings (from varying dealers) are that egregious. That particular dealer generally isn't as wild as this example.

That's what I get for making an impulse buy. It was an "I'd better get it before it's gone' type of thing.

What irony; my first order of the year was almost broken (the mauled Justinian II, which only escaped harm because it was so small, and the last order to arrive (because they took forever and a day) is damaged. The former example was not the fault of the dealer.

 

That's why I completely ignore the grading and rarity statements from dealers. I'm only concerned about condition and rarity to establish a fair purchase price. I collect a lot of mint error coins where some collectors wouldn't touch them because they see them as being "damaged" and therefore less valuable than a well struck version. However I view it differently in that they are a "unique" rarity. An example is one of my double struck coins of Philip I that I posted earlier in the thread. If it did not contain the double struck error it would easily grade EF (XF) or even MS and a 5/5 strike and 5/5 surface. However who knows how NGC would grade it with the mint error. Regardless, I see the value in the coin because I can assure you that no one else has this coin, in this condition, with this error. So there would be plenty of Roman Imperial Coin collectors willing to pay a premium for the coin.

 

(applause)

Well said. I agree completely.

That's a pretty darn nice Philip.

I'm also preparing a funeral for my poor Nero coin. That's the first time in 30 years that I've received a bent coin.

I wonder if I should go straight to vcoins management? This was a pretty egregiously bad packing job.

 

Definitely ask for a refund or store credit.

 

Well, yeah, but should I go to vcoins' management?

I'm not quite sure what to do. No one's perfect, but the last two or three packages have been like that, minus the damage. Not shoring up an overseas package is just asking for trouble.

The lack of egregious damage to the packaging/flip is also puzzling. The bend was to the bottom, when the coin arrived, i.e. it waspretty upright. Just strange.

Conversely, I doubt the dealer would purposely damage it and cause himself a headache, over a lousy 80 dollar coin. "Complain about my spotty shipping time, will you? *Ping*!" I guess anything's possible, but I'd rate that chance at about .00025%.

Eliminating the improbable, that would leave carrier purposeful damage (unlikely) and just plain en route damage.