Irish political tokens

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by BRandM, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    NF 3.JPG
    Here's a second "NF" stamp on a 1963 English Florin. It was made by the same man who made the previous example. Apparently, he spent a lot of time punching most of the change that came into the shop. According to the collector's notes, the owner was worried about him because he was so involved in the Na Fianna that he feared for his safety. They call these overly eager members "super provies" or "supertaig".

    Bruce
     
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  3. bailesjd

    bailesjd New Member

    Hello, also my first post on here, I went to the shop the otherday and got a pound coin stamped with RIRA, I knew what it meant straight away. I was wondering if anyone wants to buy it?

    Il get pic up later, PM me.
     
  4. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    P/M sent.

    Bruce
     
  5. tom12345

    tom12345 New Member

    hey all another first poster
    i too have recieved a pound coin with RIRA stamped across it today in a supermarket (I think!)
    please pm me if you are interested in buying it as I can take some photos etc.
    thank you,tom
     
  6. StuM

    StuM New Member

    Hi All,

    Here is the coin that I received in change. Great to see how it came about..

    [​IMG]

    Are these worth any more than a pound? My first reaction when I noticed it was "great, I've been duped and handed a fake coin"!
     
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

  8. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    One of the most important Nationalist leaders of the 1916 rising Ripley. A very interesting historical figure for sure.

    Bruce
     
  9. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Although there are a lot of counterfeit pound coins in circulation (some distributed by the IRA) a legitimate coin with the RIRA stamp is still legal to use as far as I know Stu. To a collector the coin is worth more than face because of the significance of the stamp. I have several in my collection that I paid 10 or 15 GBP a piece for. Of course I never see these in circulation as I live on the other side of the pond. Thanks for posting the picture. BTW, could you tell me the date of the coin, as I keep track of the different coins (dates and denominations) I see of the various political stamps. Thanks.

    Bruce
     
  10. StuM

    StuM New Member

    Hi Bruce,

    Sorry for the delay in replying. I'll double check tonight and confirm the date for you - I think it is 1993.

    Not sure how this would fit in my collection (mainly just a personal interest collection of non-special coins from countries visited) so where would be the best place to unite this coin with a collector of such things?

    Thanks again for your info and I'll post back the date for you later.

    Best,
    Stu
     
  11. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    Not a coin but a banknote, so pardon the dustup:

    [​IMG]

    These banknotes from National Bank in Belfast are very well designed and lovely - unfortunately for collectors like myself they are also quite dear and hard to find without having been defaced. You see, the watermark is the problem. The watermark is of Daniel O'Connell - an Irish nationalist from the 19th century that was one of the first Catholics elected to parliament. Politics and religion mixing too much after the pint and defacements in the form of biro X's on the watermark become quite common. The £1 notes particularly so since they were much more likely to be seen. This one completed my type set of National Bank notes and was quite dear to buy.
     
  12. StuM

    StuM New Member

    Yes, it is a 1993 coin.

    8231213064_34f6eab21c_z.jpg
     
  13. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Thanks for the info Stu. The best place to sell your coin would be on eBay. I would make an offer on it but I already have three examples in my collection. Thanks for posting it.

    Bruce
     
  14. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    That's a beautiful note scottishmoney. While I do collect New Jersey obsolete currency I don't have any Irish banknotes. Keeping in line with my interest in Irish political counterstamps though, I recently bought an English pound note with some IRA defacements on it. I bought it from a friend who lives in Belfast and always keeps an eye out for anything that might interest me. As soon as I get the note I'll post a picture for you to see. He's also came across a couple of IRA counterfeit 1-pound coins and will send them along as well. Thanks for posting your note.

    Bruce
     
  15. Aaron sea60

    Aaron sea60 New Member

    edited
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2018
  16. James O'Brien

    James O'Brien Active Member

    This is a huge area for research.

    The people who engaged in these activities seem to be on the extremes of both sides of the political divide, i.e. Loyalists, not Unionists and Republicans, not Nationalists. They also seem to have quite a bit of free time !
    - the Loyalists defaced Irish coins.
    - the Republicans defaced British coins.
    - and the banks quietly removed any defaced coins they found out of circulation.

    The pre-decimal coinage of the UK circulated freely on both sides of the Irish border banks up to D-Day (decimalisation day) in 1971 and, the florins from both countries (2 shilling coins), being the same size as the new 10p, continued to circulate in Northern Ireland up to 1977/78 when Ireland terminated "monetary union" with Sterling.

    I divide them as follows:-
    A - main stream paramilitary groups (IRA, UDA and UVF)
    B - splinter groups (INLA, UFF, etc.) before the Good Friday Agreement
    C - anything (from the above) after the Good Friday Agreement
    D - political campaigns, anti-H Block, general strikes, etc.
    E - remembrance issues, e.g. hunger strikers
    F - high quality political "works of art"

    There seems to be a bit of a resurgence in their activities since the Good Friday Agreement, with pound coins and 50p coins being the main targets. Now that the UK has demonetized the old "round pound" we should now see an end to the production / circulation of same.

    The problem is, that anyone with a punch set, that anyone can start their own little production line, i.e. buy a bag of circulated 50p coins from the bank, hammer a few acronyms and sell them on eBay for £5 each ... a nice 90% profit margin !

    My selection criteria are simple:-
    1. look at the overstrike
    2. if the metal inside is shiny, its a recent, opportunistic product
    3. if the metal inside is the same colour as the rest of the coin, it might have circulated back in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.
    4. the font type on the punch set used

    I tend to source mine from genuine attic/shed clearance lots and I usually find them in very small numbers, so modern production lines are not so much of a problem for me, personally.

    Best of luck with your research,
    James
     
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  17. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    It's been quite awhile since we spoke about the Belfast Collection coins, James. It's great to see you weigh in here. No one's better with the history of Irish coinage than yourself.

    I haven't posted on this thread for a long while, as there's very little interest shown by members. I have been more and more involved in the political issues since then however, and have learned a lot. I've cultivated a number of trusted sources in the UK...mostly Northern Ireland...and in Ireland itself. My collection now numbers over 350 coins, with a diversity of acronyms / slogans I wouldn't have believed just a few years ago.

    Unfortunately, in the past year or two, a lot of fakes have appeared on the market, as you know. I've studied them closely, and believe I have a good grasp on what's authentic and what isn't. My decades long experience with US counterstamps helps in that regard too. Just out of curiosity, I did a review of auction offerings several months ago, and of 20 examples offered, I concluded that about 15 were fakes. That's a terrible result, but it is what it is.

    As to your criteria on detecting fakes, they're generally sound. Shiny metal within the punches are a reason for concern, but not necessarily a non-starter. Some of these issues were struck and removed from circulation very quickly, so had no opportunity to tarnish or darken. Also, the darkening of the strikes can be faked, so that's not a guarantee of authenticity, but there are diagnostics to look for there as well. In any case, there are quite a few red-flags to be aware of, but few by themselves can "authenticate" a fake.

    Good to hear from you again, James. I love your website, and refer to it often.

    Kindest regards,
    Bruce
     
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  18. Colonialjohn

    Colonialjohn Active Member

    Before you write your article check John Kleeberg's article in an ANS Journal 2014. I believe its the last one that can be viewed free at Eric P. Newman Portal. His article did look very all-encompassing. Use the Search criteria also to locate it. I was surprised - he rarely goes 20thC ...

    John Lorenzo
    Numismatist
    United States
     
    BRandM likes this.
  19. James O'Brien

    James O'Brien Active Member

    Hi Bruce,

    There was a well known stamp dealer from NI who had a seemingly endless supply of stamps overprinted with slogans. It got to the point where he offered "overprint errors" with ULSTER SAYS ON instead of ULSTER SAYS NO.

    Needless to say, people just stopped collecting them.

    Best regards,
    James

    PS - I have your article + images.
    I've published very little over the past 12 months
    but I've recently got back into it. I've had a huge feedback for
    modern Ireland & GB but I'm trying to intersperse it with older types.

    I'm also trying to figure out a way to present a political section
    starting with 19th C over-strikes and tokens. I'm focusing on
    what actually circulated, as opposed to artistic one-offs, first.
     
    BRandM likes this.
  20. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I believe I've seen the article that you refer to, John, but can't seem to locate it at the moment. I know that the ANS has a small collection of these political issues, which is what I think John Kleeberg wrote about in the article you reference. I may be wrong, but that's probably the one published in the 2014 Journal.

    I recall contacting the ANS several years ago, and they were kind enough to share information on their collection. Since I've been keeping a census of examples I've seen over the last 10 years or so, I appreciated the time they took to do so. Their coins are now a part of my 1,000 + coin census.
    Thanks again,

    Bruce
     
  21. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I have a few overprinted stamps, James, but don't really collect them. They're just companion pieces to my coins.

    I also have about half a dozen banknotes overprinted or embossed with slogans, but I rarely see those. Three of them I got from the same man I bought the Belfast coins from. Surprisingly, I have a US dollar note stamped "England Out of Ireland." It was given to me by a dealer friend of mine, who found it in a lot of coins and banknotes he picked up somewhere.

    I'm looking forward to seeing what you add to your site. If I can help in anyway, please let me know.

    Bruce
     
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