investing and collecting

In general, if you are worried about losing money that to me is more of an investment than a hobby...

Hobbys cost money...

 

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Ummm - buying top tier slabs does not mean you will "not" get an over graded coin(or one with eye appeal). Why do you think top tier slabs bring different prices from different graders for the same coin and grade? So we are back to buy the coin not the slab. A good quality raw coin will bring the same as a slabbed coin. I have been looking for what I consider an acurately graded 1909-S indian cent(yes I know about the week strike on the feather tips) but I see a lot of slabbed coins that I think are overgraded(top 3). Market grading or not I want an acurate graded coin for a fair price. I have always wondered why an acurately graded coin from ANACs/NGC/PCGS bring different prices. I find it funny when the dealers perpetuate this disparity - got this from a dealer today:

A LIMITED QUANTITY OF GEORGE WASHINGTON $ MINT ERRORS WITH THE LETTERING MISSING FROM THE EDGE GRADED MS66 & MS65 BY PCGS AND IN MS65 BY NGC !!!

PCGS MS66 ONLY $699 each
PCGS MS65 ONLY $429 each
NGC MS65 ONLY $299 each

So does this mean NGC grades incorrectly or is it PCGS is under grading? So where does your best gain come from? Demand and supply also comes into play. I can't tell. My father bought an NGC graded 3 coin aniversery set for 279 including shipment and I bought a PCGS graded set for 290. Both are 69 sets - who has the better investment if the coins are graded the same?

Now for investing - yes I think my coins are a "type" of investment. Somebody somewhere will make money off of them - not me because unless something really bad happens I will not sell them. But I consider myself a rookie collector(I prefer raw coins, but my modern stuff is graded unless it comes from the mint and if the prices is right some of my older coins are graded). It just irks me to pay a premium for a slab, where if you look hard enough and long enough you can get the same coin raw at a cheaper price. The difference between this investment and a stock market investment is hugh. I can actually hold these and look at them. And more than likely they will always have some value - where as a stock can go belly up and be worthless. HEY - you want a stock to go down - just ask me to buy some of them. I think I should be some kind of stock market indicator.

Wow - my large cent worth of thoughts for probably this whole week. I like these type threads - it is all opinion and mine finally counts.:mouth:

 

I'd be careful with this one. All of the TPGs have overgraded at some point. That is why there is the saying "buy the coin, not the slab". I personally don't care what slab a coin is in, it doesn't mean it isn't overgraded. PCGS has their numbers, along with NGC. This is a perfect example. It is quite overgraded, but then that can be countered with 'grading is a matter of opinion'. But that is an example of buying the coin, and not the slab. Don't get me wrong, I think PCGS and NGC are two of the finest grading companies, but there is always a risk in everything. My two cents.

Phoenix

 

wso phoenix what should that be? ms61? I guess ms65 would show no bag marks? but then whats the difference between ms65 and ms70?

 

Yeah but that was with world coins, the darkside, what did he have to say about the Morgan?

 

Just to clarify, do you really mean common date MS64 morgans or were they the MS65 morgans selling for $1500. It's hard to believe that an MS64 morgan that might sell for $50-$60 today once sold for $1500. It's a little easier to imagine MS65 coins at that level.

If you really mean MS64, I might just start collecting them now and wait for people to get stupid again.

 

GDJSMP, do you have the raw numbers for the graph from the PCGS3000? Graphs are great for a quick "overall" view, but to do a detailed analysis, it takes the raw numbers. I have requested the information from PCGS, but do not know how long it will take to get it.

The graph presented actually makes a good argument _for_ long term investing. The PCGS3000 started with a value of $1000 in 1970, it currently is valued at $66,736.04. The annual return is over 12% for anyone who bought the theoritical package of coins in 1970 and has held on to them since. I know that I wish I had $1000 dollars in 1970 (when I was 11) and had bought those coins and put them away some where to have when I retire (hopefully) in 2025. Continuing the 12% return, those coins will be worth over $600,000. That would be a nice addition to whatever else I have available to me for my retirement.

Thanks.

 

I saw that list, it shows what coins make up the index. What I'm looking for is an annual value of index so I can calculate the annual percentage gain/loss in the index. If it is there on the web site, I am missing it.

 

This thread is exhausting. Im not sure what the final point is. BUT if coins are not investing, let me give you some stock tips: 1: AT&T 2: Carnival cruiseline 3: FEDEX 4: Canadian pacific 5: Telefono Brasil 6: Dell 7: HEICO

 

investr and collect

that is the best combination for coin collectors. only collections, the hobby will be lousy.

 

I guess I try being a Collector first then investor second. One of the reasons I have picked up 200 Ike Silver dollars in the last month for an average price of $5 each including the 1973 and 1974 proofs. It is like buying silver and getting a proof or uncalculated coin that’s 35 years old along with the silver


And they are always worth at least a dollar.

 

No problem, I don't think I was being clear enough. I do see the various charts that will show the past 1 yr, 3 yr, etc. values of the PCGS3000 index. However, if you look at the one that goes back to 1970 when, I think the index was created, it is impossible to get accurate values for any one particular year.

For example, looking at the chart for the first few years it appears that for 1970 and 1971, the index had a value of $1000, so therefore the percentage change from 1970 to 1971 would be 0%. Looking at 1972, the value went up, but it is impossible to know if it went up to $1200, $1500, $2000 or some other value. If I can get the specific value for individual years, I can then do a better analysis that can compare investing in coins in a manner that is similar to other investments.

I realize there will always be some disagreement as to whether coins should be a pure hobby or not. For those who look at it completely as a hobby, great! I am one who blends the two. I have an enjoyment of the various coins I collect, the hunt for good quality coins at the best grade I can afford (and yes I "buy the coin, not the slab" ). I also look at it as a long term investment, one that can be used by myself, if need be, when I retire if I need the funds, or to be left for my children when I'm gone if I don't need to sell off my collection. I don't collect only coins that I think will have the best chance at long term gain, I choose coins that I find attractive and then do the best I can within those areas.

Hopefully I've made myself a little more clear this time. And thanks for patience with me. :high5:

 

This has been my approach as well, but not with Ike dollars. Whenever you can purchase a coin for close to bullion value that also has characteristics that may lead to a numismatic premium at some point in the future, it seems like a no-brainer to acquire it.

 

How about this to sum it up. Betting on coins is like betting on horses. Beware of the old horseracing expression, "I'm hoping to get lucky and break even."

 

IMO, investing in coins with little or no desire for the collecting side is an effect hoping that a cause will come along and make it so. The cause does come along--The Greater Fool Theory-- but I really doubt that it's collectors who are cause of it. We're consumers first and there is no reason for a consumer to get excited about rising prices.

It just isn't true that coin collectors will pay whatever price is necessary for a key date. Type collectors don't have to buy any specific date. Date collectors typically have several series that they can work on going back and forth and buying at prices they like.

There are too many collecting alternatives now with Topical collecting and the Internet. Collectors are inventing their own Topicals and have the whole world to supply their collections from. This will be a good thing for coin collecting--there will be, IMO, a lot of growth in coin collecting over the next 10 years. But it may doom many "investors" and even some dealers because there is an enigma side to it. If I buy a silver medal issued from the Conejo Coin Club in 1967 did I buy it because I like silver, because I like medals from Coin Clubs or because I like really like Errors and the medal was designed by Lonesome John Devine? Who is going to figure this stuff out and "corner us" into paying higher prices?

 

The numismatic market is pretty efficient, making it tough to "invest' in coins. But is isn't perfectly efficient and there are a few approaches that are relatively low risk and potentially profitable because of certain blind spots that many pure collectors seem to have. But I agree that throwing money at key dates and high priced coins are not among them.