Interesting thread about a PCGS reholder sub that downgraded

Nope. You always get stuck on this same thing.

The point of the grading scale is not to identify the amount of wear.

The point of the grading scale is to identify the relative quality of the coin.

Wear is just one of the features used to determine that relative quality number. But it breaks down at the 58/60 boundary. Every collector here can tell you they have seen technical 58s that are as nice or better quality than a technical 65. That's a broken scale. End of story.

 

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When I read the title to this thread, I had a bet going with myself that you would be the very first to show up and defend PCGS. I think that I'll treat myself to an overgraded coin in the auction tomorrow.

 

I'm shocked the thread lasted as long as it did. I would not be shocked if the thread is deleted and they boot some that posted in the thread.

 

The difference between the coin’s “value” and what PCGS offered in compensation was only $100. I don’t know how much that is in comparison to the coin’s value. PCGS offers only what a dealer would pay for the coin in the grade it originally was at (which is completely stupid and a somewhat ripoff guarantee). If the coin was a $1500 coin in the original grade, a $100 difference is fair considering their policy. If it was a $200 coin, then I can see how the owner would be livid.

The question is how can the “reholder” service get mixed up with the “grade evaluation” survice.

 

Someone quoted this in that thread:

"For 24 years we've stood behind the service we provide to you not with a money back/fee returned policy if we make a mistake...not with a "we're sorry, we'll return your grading fee or give you free grading" policy if we make a mistake...but with an actual cash guarantee for the market value of the coins we grade and authenticate."

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update

The poster said they got a "we're sorry" email and an offer of grading vouchers instead of a cash guarantee. The exact opposite of what PCGS claims.

Edit: that link is an article from 2009, so it seems like they have shifted away from that stance.

 

hmmmmmm. Totally not the first time they have ignored their publicly-posted standards.

 

“If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed or non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade (in which case, PCGS shall become the owner of the coin), or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned (in which case, the coin at the newly established grade will be returned to the owner). PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS. IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT PCGS WILL BE THE SOLE DETERMINER OF THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE OF THE COIN AND THAT CURRENT MARKET VALUE IS DEFINED AS DEALER REPLACEMENT VALUE, I.E. THE PRICE A DEALER WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE TO PAY TO REPLACE THE COIN.”

https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

Aha! The guarantee ONLY applies to “Guarantee Resubmission” submissions. By regrading it under the “Reholder” submission, they are technically not required to pay the difference to the owner.

Really shifty stuff PCGS...

 

Again, these are guarantees for the grade. The designation is not the grade. There is no policy for recovery of losses for a designation change is there? The wording here is very important.

I had a 19th century proof that was mistakenly slabbed as a PF62 Restrike by NGC (it was unquestionably original as it had no restrike mark). I submitted it for reholder service and asked for "restrike" to be removed since it was incorrect.

At first they reholdered it again as PF62 Restrike, but I called before it shipped out and pointed out (again) that there was no restrike mark. At that point they agreed to change it, but then they also changed it from PF62 to MS62 without telling me. They would not budge on this after I called and wrote to complain, even though the coin looked so much like a proof that they slabbed it as such and even did so after a second review. They wouldn't even make it MS62 PL, and I got no compensation. The price difference was very significant, but the "grade" of 62 did not change.

 

I would be really hacked.

 

I'm no plastic expert, but would like to know,
If a coin is sent in to be reholdered, is it given the same certification number or a new one? My thoughts are that if I owned the coin, I also own the holder and lable.

If I send it in to be reholdered, they shouldn't change what the lable says without consulting me first. I may choose to leave it like it is. The way this guy was treated was like, as soon as it was placed in PGCS's hands, it's theirs to do with as they wish.

 

The certification number should stay the same with a reholder.
The slab will be new and the label will be new, but everything else is technically supposed to stay the same.

If you look at the sample PCGS provides, you can see the cert number, grade, and even designation (RD) staying the same:



https://www.pcgs.com/services/reholder

 

Any deviance from that should only be with owner approval. Especially in the case of lowered value. As stated, I care nothing about plastic but I understand someone collecting it, even just collecting coins with the "+" on the holder.

 

It was very likely graded correctly both times. The PL/DMPL designation is just one of the things that has gotten much stricter as time went on and is much tighter today than ever before. An older graded PL coin can easily be correct for the standard used at the time when it was graded and fail the standard of today

Preach. The fact that there was ever a hard line with essentially two different scales stacked on top of each other was just a horrendous idea from the start. I honestly have no clue how people thought that was a great idea for as long as they did.

It applies to it as well but none of the negotiations are public and we never actually know how reasonable the expectations of the person is. The guarantee goes off current market value and if the market has gone down since the purchase you will obviously get the short end of the stick on that. I have no idea who the guy is or what he wanted, but I do know a lot of people seem to think that the compensation should be their purchase price.

Yea the cert stays the same for reholders, regrading you get a new cert.

 

That's essentially saying you should be able to dictate their grading to them. None of the the legit TPGs operate in that manner nor should they.

 

If i added a room on your house and later decided that I didn't like it, does that give me the right to tear if off at a later date when I'm again hired for maintenance?

 

Completely different situations. It's more the trying to tell an appraiser that they can't change anything without your permission, that's not how it works for 3rd party evaluations

 

You can change your opinion any time you want but the fiscal property or evidentiary
history belongs to the owner. You will lose by public opinion every time.

 

The person in that thread seemed reasonable. They wanted the amount it would take to buy the same graded coin they used to own (a 64 PL Morgan-they didn't mention the date). The offer from PCGS was grading vouchers.

 

You're completely missing the point.

Why did Sheldon develop the original grading scale? The purpose, as I'm sure you know, was NOT to determine the level of wear. The purpose was to identify the relative quality of large cents for the purpose of assigning a value. Sounds like the rationale behind market grading doesn't it? And why were the grades 60-70 fully expanded? They have nothing to do with wear. Why to measure the relative quality of a coin for assigning a value.

None of this is about identifying the level of wear. Observing the level of wear is just one tool used for identifying quality, and although it is a good one, a fanatical adherence to wear above all other aspects of a coin is an absurdity that completely misses the mark at understanding the spirit and purpose of coin grading.