Interesting NGC Attribution 1967 40% Silver Half Dollar - Incorrect?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by paddyman98, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    Hello,
    I saw this item for sale on ebay which has me stumped o_O
    (not my coin)

    I will show you and you will see that there is something not right with the attribution given by NGC..

    I don't think that is correct.
    Missing Reverse Clad Layer? On a 40% Silver Planchet?
    Were they Silver and Clad? What part was silver and which part was copper? I'm confused!
    1967 1.PNG 1967 2.PNG 1967 4.PNG

    What gives?

    I did the NGC Verify and found it..
    1967 5.PNG

    The weight is off. It should be 11.5 Grams. So I'm not sure what the issue is.
    Struck on Rolled Thin Planchet?
    1967 3.PNG

    I want to tag a few people that might fing this item interesting..
    @cpm9ball @Pete Apple @JCro57 @Fred Weinberg @Collecting Nut
    @Conder101 @ldhair
    @Pickin and Grinin @thomas mozzillo

    Or maybe I just don't know enough about 40% Kennedy composition! :hilarious:
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  3. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Your guess is as good as mine, Mr. P.! According to the Red Book, the outer layer is .800 silver and .200 copper bonded to an inner core of .209 silver and .791 copper. If it was missing the "clad" layer (and I use that term loosely) I would expect to see more copper than silver on the inner core. ~ Chris
     
  4. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    But that core still looks more like silver than copper, at least on most of the 40% half edges I've examined.

    Looking at @paddyman98's top two photos, I see that the slab and background are brighter in the second photo than the first. That makes me think the coin's reverse is darker than its obverse, which is what I'd expect if the high-silver layer were missing.
     
    Bob Evancho and paddyman98 like this.
  5. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    You've sure peaked my interest. You are correct in what you have pointed out. NGC stores that the designer/engraver is Gilroy Roberts, which is partly correct, if that. Roberts designed the obverse and he was the chief engraver of the Miht from 1948-1964. In February 1965 Frank Gasparro became the chief engraver and he designed the reverse. Their initials and on the neck and to the right of the Eagles tail feathers.

    Since the weight difference is 2 full grams I must agree that the planchet was rolled thin. If the outer silver layer was missing would it weight 2 grams? Is the lighting true? We all know what lighting does to coin photos. Jeff would be correct if the lighting was the same but 2 grams of silver to change the color?

    Is it possible that the NGC label is just plain wrong?
     
    paddyman98 likes this.
  6. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    Just goes to show me that I know very little to nothing. I expected to see a copper colored reverse. Back then, I would have just spent it as it doesn't look any different to my eye than a normal one. Maybe I did spend one. LOL
     
    Stevearino and paddyman98 like this.
  7. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    I'd like to hear from NGC as to how they arrived at the designation. I just looked at the edge of all my 40% Kennedy's at can not see any evidence of separate layers. My guess is that they went by the weight which is 1.6 grams below the allowable tolerance. Weight is 11.50g +/- 0.400 (11.10-11.90). The only other thing I can see is a weak strike on the reverse.
     
  8. rooman9

    rooman9 Lovin Shiny Things

    It’s possible they ran a metal test on both sides to figure out if it’s a thin planchet or one where the outer layer is missing.
     
    Spark1951 likes this.
  9. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    o_O

    [​IMG]

    I tend not to keep 40% halves long, but I probably have a few tubes tucked away. I'll try to remember to get some out and photograph the edges. In my experience, nearly all of them show clear layering. Usually the central layer is toned darker than the cladding layers, but sometimes it shows an almost golden hue.
     
  10. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    All the 40% halves I have are circulated and the spaces between the reeding is dark and the reeds are shiny. Perhaps if I looked at the few that I have in the SMSs I could see the layers.
    EDIT. IMO I don't think NGC is wrong. I would just like to know how they arrived at their designation.
     
  11. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    The attribution is 100% correct.

    The core of a 40% silver clad coin is not copper-red as non-silver clad coins are; the core is silver-colored because the core is copper and silver just as the two outer layers are.

    It can be difficult to tell a side is missing as luster is often still present. Normally there will be at least some areas that are dull, but not always. The weight is the best and nearly almost the only way to tell a side is missing.

    However, in this case NGC got it right. It is missing a layer on one side.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  12. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The outer layer on a coppernickel clad is 16% of the weight of the coin. If we assume the thickness of the outer layer on a 40% silver half is the same as on the coppernickel clad, we can assume the weight will also be about 16% (Actually it will be a little more because the outer layers have a higher density than the center on the 40% silver half. On the coppernickel clad coins the density of the outer and center layers is almost identical.)

    16% of the weight of a 40% silver half is 1.84 grams. Since the outer layers would be a little more than 16%, 2 grams is very likely.

    May I suggest a red book? :)
     
  13. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    I have 2..
    A 2007 and 2017. Both collecting dust :banghead:
     
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  14. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    That does it, buster. You're not allowed to go out with the metal detector until you've finished your homework.

    ;)
     
  15. Spark1951

    Spark1951 Accomplishment, not Activity Supporter

    Paddy...I have a 2017 also and they are still handy. My sister in law (Nancy) found a 1940-S Jeff last week...I looked up the mintage and grading criteria. I still use it frequently...I keep it within reach in my Coin Lab...Spark
     
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  16. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I get what you're saying but to get there you assumed twice, took an actually it would be, had an almost and ended up with a very likely. To me, that's a lot of unknowns.
     
  17. harrync

    harrync Active Member

    A 40% clad half has about 3.7 grams of .800 fine, and about 7.8 grams of .209 fine, so each .800 fine clad should weigh about 1.85 grams. So it seems to me, that 2 gram deficit is just about right for a missing clad.
     
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  18. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    Thank you. I was never aware of that so this is all interesting to me!
    It just shows that after 36 years of collecting Mint Errors there is always something new to learn.
     
  19. Nyatii

    Nyatii I like running w/scissors. Makes me feel dangerous

    You know that every troll on here with a roadkill coin will quote you on that.
     
  20. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    It appears to me that the obverse has more luster than the reverse witch one (silver or Copper) would be weaker in luster Paddy?
     
  21. Fred Weinberg

    Fred Weinberg Well-Known Member

    That's the 'typical' look on the reverse of that
    split Kennedy.

    I see no problem with the label or weight.
     
    Kentucky and paddyman98 like this.
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