Interesting Grading Decision

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by NSP, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    You can find plenty of examples of grading services not wanting to be too liberal with throwing around “details” designations, but sometimes you come across straight graded coins that really cause you to wonder what the graders were thinking.

    Behold the MS61 1822 25/50 quarter (B-2, R5): Link

    Here’s the Stacks listing for the coin from a few years ago: Link

    The 1822 25/50 quarter is one of the more interesting varieties from the 1820s (for all denominations), and it is the second rarest of three die marriages for 1822, so this variety is understandably quite popular. Evidently the engraver thought he was producing a half dollar die, and then corrected his mistake by punching in 25 over the 50, creating a naked-eye variety. This particular coin is one of the highest graded specimens of this variety, which makes this quite a coin. However, I was certainly disappointed to see it was straight graded, since it has a large nick in the left obverse field and scratches below the scroll on the reverse. I guess it got the “rare coin pass?”
     
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  3. Mkman123

    Mkman123 Well-Known Member

    why did I already think this was a PCGS coin before clicking on the links? Its disappointing that this coin was not put in a details holder. How is it that their are coins in which the owners get a details for a tiny rim ding but this coin isn't in a details holder? RIDICULOUS
     
  4. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Supporter! Supporter

    I've seen enough "details" holders by all the major TPG's that had less nicks and scratches than the subject coin. I also wonder why it straight graded. That "rare coin pass" is BS but they do it anyways.
     
    micbraun, GoldFinger1969, NSP and 2 others like this.
  5. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    What a cool variety! Evidently one too many ciders at breakfast.

    ....the obverse makes it borderline at best, but the reverse seals it at details without a doubt. Thanks for sharing either way as I had never come across this variety before. Very cool. :)
     
    NSP and Paul M. like this.
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    And it's not just with "rare" coins, nor is it just with coins that should be no grades and aren't. Same kinda thing occurs with straight graded coins too, they get upgraded without being worthy of it.

    This gross inconsistency with no grades and upgrades occurs with "rare" coins, expensive coins, coins with certain Pedigrees, coins of a certain age, and even some special designations. None of which are valid reasons for the things they do.
     
  7. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    The graffiti on this one definitely puts it into UNC Details for me. That is gross, even if it is a high grade example of a rare variety.

    I would much rather have an undamaged coin at a lower grade!
     
  8. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I posted this on Facebook as an example of why TPGs are not to be blindly trusted and how PCGS is not as infallible as most think they are.

    Manny of the respondants are trying to defend PCGS’s grade. This is why PCGS is so successful and able to get away with their lessening standards.
     
  9. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

    It’s PCGS. No further comment required. You all know what I think of them.
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  10. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

  11. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    I’m not too keen on letting that scratch on the bust slide, but I’ve seen worse. Case in point:
    https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/246464/1819-Capped-Bust-Quarter-Large-9-PCGS-VG-10

    And another:
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1251-9311.s

    And don’t get me wrong, I understand that lower graded coins are expected to have more dings and scratches, but I do not like it when blatant graffiti is given a pass.
     
    TypeCoin971793 and 1916D10C like this.
  12. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    When dealing with any slab, it’s best to keep one’s eyeballs focused on the coin and not the label.
     
  13. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

    That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

    I have also seen countless, COUNTLESS 1916-D in PCGS Slabs with graffiti/scratches. Really irks me that people bash ICG when PCGS does this crap and gets away with it.
     
  14. Omegaraptor

    Omegaraptor Gobrecht / Longacre Enthusiast

    Look at some 1877 IHCs slabbed by PCGS. Many PCGS VF-20 coins look F-12 at best - even factoring in the weak strike.
     
  15. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    Welp, it sold for $43,312.50 with the buyers fee tacked on. The last time it was publicly sold at auction, it went for $48,468.75. By my estimation, that equates to the seller taking a ~$10,000 bath after fees are deducted.
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  16. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Interesting how baseball21 has yet to comment on this thread...
     
    micbraun likes this.
  17. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    1877 IHCs are my go-to example to show TPG overgrading
     
  18. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Why would I care what happens when someone buys a coin like that from a first tier auction house then makes a decision to not use one of them? Despite what people think people buying mid 6 figure coins and up overall really don't care what is said in threads. Seller could have potentially done better with a first tier auction house but they made their choice
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  19. Moondog

    Moondog New Member

    Apologies for digging up this "older" thread, but I am a bit confused (maybe not so much confused , as disillusioned).
    I have been recently re-energized about completing and/or upgrading my Lincoln (wheat reverse) collection. While looking for a 1914-D (upgrade) and the 1922 No D coin; I have found that the slabbed coins I have looked at have been mildly to severely "overgraded". And ESPECIALLY those from PCGS. I use PCGS Photograde A LOT, when looking for coins to purchase. And when comparing PCGS Photograde to several of THEIR slabbed coins; they appear to be severely overgrading "rarer" or more "sought after" coins.
    For example, I have bid on and/or bought a number of coins from "Great Collections" and Heritage Auctions". Great Collections has a feature with archived coins, sold at their auctions. I can open these up and see the original photos, etc.
    And when I compare a "Same Grade" 1922 No D to a 1922-D coin (PCGS Graded); the less rare 1922-D is always a much better coin than the 1922 no D. The same goes for the 1914-D, 1909 VDB Lincolns, etc..
    I have noticed this in the past with other coins, but I really found this out "recently" when I started looking for "higher" grade, "rarer" coins.
    When I compared the same grade PCGS and NGC coins, the NGC (and ANACS) coins also appear to be slightly overgraded, but not as bad as the PCGS coins.
    Several days ago I sent an email to PCGS and asked this question about my observations. I will say I was very polite and inquired very nicely. I explained that I am NO Expert. However, I received a "generic" email reply which "in a nutshell" said "don't call us, we'll call you".
    I guess the bottom line is "What's in it for PCGS?" Are they advantaged in some way, by overgrading?
    I am certainly no expert and there are A LOT of things I don't know about coin quality/grading. That's why I try to use every tool I can to help make a decision, before a purchase.
    BTW:
    I have been a member for a while now but I don't say much. I just try to see what the "experts" here have to say. But I finally had "enough".
    I don't trust any of them. I use them as a guide. Then I try to determine the grade I think it is. I then check PCGS and NGC price guides, as well as GC and HA archives for "actual recent auction" prices paid.
    Thanks for letting me vent!!!
     
  20. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Think about why the no D even exists, once you get that it's extremely obvious why the with 22-D which was made from better dies look better.

    As for the others comparing branch mints to philly coins until the last couple decades Philly was almost always better (though for IKEs Denver was overall better and there are some other exceptions like the 81-S Morgan) and so on. Date and mint mark matter for grading and how they're graded
     
  21. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Is it your contention -- and others reading this thread -- that NGC does not do this or at least as frequently ?

    I'm asking, not trying to make a point.
     
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