Interesting 1804 Large Cent - What would you pay?

So, I've come upon an interesting coin at a good deal. Just wondering what others would have paid for this coin.

So far, I've had some difficulty finding info on the Double Struck 1804 and how that affects the value... so help is greatly appreciated!!!

Here are the pics PCGS, Professional, and a pic I took.

 

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I would call that machine damaged, not doublestruck. Also overgraded at VF. It is F at best. I’d go $2000 if I wanted it, but I don’t want it. The 1804 is an overpriced common “rarity”.

 

Love it. Not bad for a details coin at all.

 

Interesting.... how do they distinguish "machine doubling" from "double struck"? Because I would call this machine doubling, and wouldn't pay a premium for it at all.

Also, what "Damage" are they seeing, besides the incredibly rough and extremely marked up surfaces?

I'm really not very sure what this coin *is*, but I damn well know what it isn't: "a coin I would buy"

 

Looks Nice!

 

Damage?
Is that on the obv, around the ear?

Nice, but ? double struck?

 

Personally, I think it is a VF-20.

The question is... you'd only pay $2000 for an 1804 Large Cent even in "Fine" condition?

So... why is it a coin you wouldn't buy??? Let's just take away the Slab - it can always be re-graded.

To you, it is Not Damaged. Take away the fact that it is Double Struck.

What else is wrong with the coin if you wanted an 1804 Large Cent for your collection???

 

Yes, it is clearly double struck. Look at the "second chin" below the chin. Also, the letters in "LIBERTY" are all double struck - very obvious in-hand.

 

Independent of whether the coin is double struck or not, the biggest issue are the innumerable surfaces marks. Early American Copper collectors rank the appearance of a coin as 'Choice', 'Average', or 'Scudzy'. This coin is not exactly scudzy, but it is close. At best it is Average minus, in my opinion.

The mark on the cheek does not help, so that the general appearance, at least from the picture, is rather poor.
On the plus side, it is not corroded, pitted or grainy as so many are. So that is a good thing. Another positive is the fact it is a die state A (no die breaks/cuds on either side. These is the scarcest of the 3 die states for Sheldon-266).

Concerning the toning: is it darkly toned, or does it have nice chocolate brown color? The first picture makes it appear rather dark. Not a plus.

Taking all of this together, and judging solely from the pictures, the net grade would be considerably lower than the details grade. In my opinion, from a VF20/VF30 or so down to VG10, give or take.

I think I would prefer a nice VG10 example to the coin above.

 

Well, thank you for all the useful info! I hadn't gotten to determining the Die State yet, so that is good to know! Does Die State A increase value whatsoever?

Does the fact that it is "Double Struck" affect the value?

As far as the color of the coin, it is more of a chocolate brown. See Below - and I also show the doubling of the chin.

 

Does anyone think that having it Re-Graded would be a good idea?

I can always send it to NGC.

 

I believe that the difference between "Machine Doubling" and "Double Struck" is the fact that, in 1804, the Coin Minting Process was done by a manual machine, with humans controlling each strike of a die. SO, Double Struck probably refers to Human Error, and not Machine Error.

After about 1833, they began using Steam Powered machines, so those machines could create "Machine Doubling" that is not due to human error.

 

Copper Quotes by Robinson (the so-called C.Q.R booklet) rates Die State A (no breaks) as a R-4+.
Die state B (one break only - over "RTY") is rated R-5.
Die State C (both obverse and reverse breaks) is rated R-2.

So your coin is still a respectable R-4+.
C.Q.R prices them accordingly. The value premium for a given grade and condition
is very roughly $500 as you go from Die State C to A to B (for the grades we are talking about here).

I really cannot tell you what the premium would be if this is truly a double struck
S-266. Maybe you can look it up in the Heritage Archives. If double strikes are known, you should find them there.

 

Heritage only shows 1 - 1804 Double Struck Cent - F Details sold in 1997 for $1,035 - of course, that was 21 Years ago.

I also found an S-266a R4 that sold at Goldberg Auctions in 2004 for $10,063. It doesn't appear to have doubling, though:

1804 S-266a R4.Fine-15 Plus. Sharpness VF20 with a few light rim bruises, including one at ER in LIBERTY, another lighter one just left of the date, and another just left of the fraction. A small contact mark at the dentils just right of the date is the only other notable defect. Attractive glossy chocolate brown with some frosty lighter steel brown toning in protected areas of the reverse. Smooth, corrosion-free surfaces. Nicely struck EDS, Breen state I. Both dies are unbroken. Nice eye appeal for the grade in spite of the minor contact marks. DWH #3097.
Estimated Value $5,000-UP. (SOLD $10,063)

Here's the other info about Double Struck 1804's:

1804 Double Struck Fine 15, B-8, C-9, R-2, Die State VII with the rim break over RTY, the most obvious doubling involves parts of IBERTY along the rim above the final, properly placed strike of LIBERTY, one notes that the rim break shows on both the first slightly off-center strike, and the later centered strike, furthermore, the last A of AMERICA is doubled, and centered below the right ribbon end, average or better surfaces, color and strike, this piece is identifiable by a small diagonal mark on the leaves below the C of CENT, another mark on the wreath below the D of UNITED, and a tiny raised patch of corrosion between AT of STATES. (Dr. Montgomery believes that this coin was struck on a spoiled, cut-down large cent planchet, as evidenced by the double striking. Perhaps he is correct, and this coin was subject to an article in Penny Wise, Vol. X, July 15, 1976, p. 194. This exact coin is discussed in the Breen Encyclopedia of United States Half Cents on pages 247 and 476. No doubt the new owner will have an opportunity to resolve this mystery and will hopefully follow up in an article with pictures for Penny Wise. An important and spectacular error that will bring much pleasure to its new owner); and an 1804 Double Struck VF 30 Cleaned, B-10, C-13, R-1, less controversial, but similarly spectacular, is this B-10, C-13 which is also double struck on the obverse, notably on the outline of Liberty, examination reveals two eyes on Liberty, a doubled bust line, ribbon, and curls, doubling on the reverse is limited to the outline of the rim above ES OF A, which touches the tops of OF, cleaned long ago, but given a chance, it should tone down. (Dr. Montgomery notes that someone postulated that this coin was overstruck on a spoiled large cent. Perhaps this is an explanation as to why neither the word LIBERTY nor the date show any evidence of doubling. Another coin that should be subject to an article in Penny Wise.) A controversial pair that will no doubt bring hours of pleasant conversation at future EAC Conventions.

 

The most recent results for VF details on Heritage were in the $1500 range. I’d say $2000 is generous.

The obverse fields are full of severe and distracting marks.

To me, no. But since the slab says so, it will to other people.

No. It will be worth a lot more in this slab than if you had it regraded.

 

Thank you for your opinion. Just an FYI... it truly IS Double Struck... it is glaringly obvious when looking at the coin.

 

So, what did you pay?

 

I think I'll keep that a secret... I may have paid too much.

 

Definitely what is called a "chatter strike" or "die bounce" in the early copper world. Same as machine doubling, I'd guess. Double striking means the coin was ejected or at least moved significantly before the second striking. That did not occur with this coin unless it was ejected and replaced almost perfectly on the die.

 

I'm with PCGS. You can alway's re-submit it.