Insane coin prices today: HA and CNG

I picked up one inspired by lordmarcovan. It's more than I wanted to pay but it's the top graded at pcgs and ngc and after everything was only a couple hundred more than what circulated examples go for.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Although I noticed some of the electrum coins brought rediculous prices.

 

I threw 1 dart at todays Roma sale and was lucky that it hit the target.
My max bid was below estimate, there were better examples of the same " type " in the sale which may have helped my bid stand but I still didn't think I would get it.

 

One must remember, most electrum coins are very rare/ high quality ones even more. US coins of same rarity would all go for 6 figures......

 

Sorry to disagree John but I didn't see anything in yesterday's auction that would command a 6 figure sum in US auctions or even the most exclusive European auctions. Having said that, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to ancients and wasn't looking at all their listings.

The issue I have with Roma is that they intentionally or unintentionally fail to highlight any issues with their listed coins. They believe in "Caveat Emptor" and buyers have to assess the quality of the coins themselves and take the risk. Also they don't post full hi-def pictures which would allow the buyer to really zoom in or enlarge the image of the coin and examine it in detail. HA and even in most cases, eBay post much better pictures IMHO.

In the past I've been through the exercise of trying to buy 'rare' issues at Roma and selling them in the US but lost 20-30% on the ones I sold. My one and only attempt to test the feasibility of trading in coins and reduce the base cost of my collection......FAILED MISERABLY!!! Most of the coins had issues which were not mentioned in the listing or could not be readily seen in the pictures.

Last night I was looking to buy one of their Carthage Zeugitana offerings but their coins had serious issues, in my opinion, marks on their surfaces, split/damage on the flan or poor surface quality of metal. Similarly, the Julius Caesar portrait by Buca interested me but the portrait itself was not very flattering. Probably done after one of Caesar's campaigns when army rations had run out

In the end I did buy one of their AV offerings but only because it had been previously graded, is a very rare type (only 3 known pieces) and I managed to sneak in under the radar and get it at well below estimates. It looked quite clean in the photos so let's hope they haven't done any damage to it when they cracked it out of the coffin.

 

Hi Najib, @1934 Wreath Crown - I have to disagree with you on this one... in my opinion, pictures that Roma provides are of the finest quality and they do highlight issues like, marks, scuffs, scratches, etc.
You lost 20-30% not because of the quality of a coin, but simply because you overpaid...

 

I disagree with a lot of what you posted @1934 Wreath Crown.

Firstly, you misunderstood @panzerman's post, not a good start.

Then you tell us that you have a lack of knowledge concerning ancients and present us with your failed investment model based solely on a " rarity " principle.

I have left out your personal attack on Roma for obvious reasons, if the coins were not as described you should have returned them.

Then you finish with a paragraph explaining that you are still employing a big part of the failed investment model in your new purchase but still cant help yourself from having another swipe at Roma.

Please keep it balanced, it comes across as though you are blaming Roma for your own failings.

Yes, I have overpaid for coins and lost money. who here hasn't ?

 

The only thing I want to respond to on your post @1934 Wreath Crown, and just for a side note to everyone else is that you can ALWAYS ask the auction house if they can send you bigger HD pictures of the coins you are interested in if you think it is too small on the website or catalog or whatever.
I do not know specifically regarding Roma, but I can speak for some other auction houses and they always sent me such big HD pictures that it can not even fit on my computer screen. I even had one time that one of the numismatist send me a video of the coin how it looks in the hand to me, in the weekend! (big kudos to Nomos)

 

@Svarog We are obviously not looking at the same Roma website

I admit I was naive when I initially bought from them and relied totally on their description and grades for the coins which NEVER mention edge cuts, bankers marks or any fault in the coin. I do look at their coins more carefully now. By contrast, the cataloguer at HA will praise the coin for its uniqueness or exclusivity but also mention any flaw or unusual character. That is why I trust them more.

As an example, look at listing #983. There is a huge gash on the cheek of the emperor. Now unless he's been crying and that is a tear, there is no way that would ever be graded as a VF without a footnote mentioning the damaged obverse by any grading company or be described as simply "very fine" on HA.

I intentionally haven't reproduced the link to the listing here in case it breaches a copyright or it is prohibited by the moderators but this was just a random example I found in less than 5 seconds.

I was also looking at #1256, a Valentinian I solidus. I was told it wasn't clipped. Then why does it weigh between 0.2-0.3g less than a standard solidus?

I stand by what I've said earlier, you can neither enlarge their photos the same way as HA PLUS you have to watch their listings very carefully.

 

These issues you bring up don't affect the grading of ancient coins like they do for more modern coins. Ancient coin grading is much more subjective.

 

I agree I misread John's post. Yes he was referring to US coins.

I'm not upset about losing money or paying higher for a coin I like be it modern or ancient. As you said, we've all done that. What I do feel strongly about is a reputable auction house not describing the item completely and accurately.

Finally, the recent purchase was not for it's rarity but it is a decent coin, I've always wanted some Roman gold and for once they did indicate that it had been looked at by NGC

 

I agree they do provide more information and/or pictures. I had asked the opinion of this forum regarding clipping of a solidus I liked. Most said it looked clipped and was lighter than the standard weight. I got a reply from the auction house, just before the auction, that it wasn't clipped. So how is the loss in weight explained?

Decided not to go for that one based on the opinion of the experts here and my own gut feeling.

 

Najib aka @1934 Wreath Crown, just out of curiosity, do you mind sharing coins that you said you lost 20-30% of value - just want to see the issues that you mentioned and if you did enough research on prices for similar coins?

 

I will try to find the details and send them to you on your inbox. My first purchase from them was a low value assortment of Greek coins which were quite nice. Still have them.

The next one had 2 dodgy coins (one was broken in bits during transit and the second was a fake). They took them back and gave me a credit. I felt confident and bought some dinarii from them which really were not near the quality I expected. Maybe I believed that bankers' marks etc were acceptable but, I later found out that, to many collectors, they are not and they do effect the value.

I never bothered to go back to their website till about a week ago when I spotted the solidus and the aureus. I still believe the solidus was clipped but that the aureus is OK. Here's the solidus I passed on:



Obverse 9-11 o'clock; reverse 6.30-9.....clipped or not??!! Weight 4.21g

 

I wonder who told you that. It is clearly clipped. Solidi from that period always weigh more, as you note, unless they are clipped.

Professional dealers can be expected to know more than most potential buyers. If they can identify a significant flaw that some potential buyers will not notice, is it their responsibility to note it explicitly? Or, can they omit mention of it (which they might in order to sell it higher)? Can they, in the case of the solidus, rationalize that they gave the weight and the buyer should know it was supposed to weigh more and it is therefore "obviously" clipped?

I think the dealer should note, in words, flaws of that significance. Dealers should be "trustworthy"-- worthy of trust they that are on the side of you, the customer considering buying the coin, as much as they are on the their own side as the seller.

I think the buyer of that solidus has grounds to return it. That listing (lot 1256) erodes trust. You can bet that if Roma were the potential buyer their knowledge about clipping would have significantly impacted how much they would pay for that coin.

 

Thank you @Valentinian that is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. I wrote to Roma and received an emphatic reply just a couple of hours prior to the auction...."The solidus is NOT clipped". I chose to pass on it because I believe in the expertise and opinions of fellow members on this site as they don't have any ulterior motives to mislead anyone.

I am of the firm belief that IF one wants to present oneself as a reputable dealer/auctioneer then one owes a duty to the bidders to disclose faults. Ignoring them is tantamount to deception. Dealers/auctioneers are professionals and it is not unreasonable to expect them to have detailed knowledge and make full disclosure.

Before I pay for the coin I won, I would welcome any comments. I could not see any flaws apart from normal wear for an XF grade. They mentioned the mark at 12 o'clock as a 'highly unusual metal feature resembling an inverted trident-head'. Its not been mounted has it??

 

That obverse metal flaw is odd. It doesn't look like mounting and NGC didn't note as such when it was slabbed (and they're particularly cautious on this). When NAC sold it in 2016 for 4750 CHF hammer, they noted the flaw but didn't mention anything further.

Roma disclosed this in the description so I think you're getting what you bid on.

 

Joe they mention it as a unique feature not a flaw. I see a mounting as a flaw. A feature on the other hand makes it exclusive. It was there when NGC took a look at it and they didn't mention it so I suppose its not such a bad thing. Plus they graded it as FS.

 

Actually, there are 2 answers to your question. First, many are buying Silver & Gold coins for safety but, not due to any recession. They do this as they believe this protects their assets and gives additional opportunity to use later. Not true.

Secondly, HA and CNG are not accurate auction sites for the masses of coin collectors. On the contrary, they sell to wealthy and ONLY sell elite coins. This being the case, this is NOT at all the behavior of coin collectors as a whole. Most of these people pay the value of or OVER the value just to get a specific coin so, this again is NOT what normal coin collectors do.

Hope this helps.

 

I'm lucky in that I have low standards and short pockets and only once have I upgraded a coin cos I hated my example.