Inheritance story

I'd never do business with them again; a bunch of unprofessional bozos.

 

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Someone should start a site listing unethical coin dealers and the stories behind their poor business tactics such as the stories posted here. If that would get you sued, start a website that reviews coin dealers.

 

In an ideal world, I think that's a nice idea. However, IMO one would sail treacherous waters hosting or even reserving the domain name for such a site, let alone creating and moderating one... open oneself up to libel suits...

Then again, Angie's List was exonerated by a court ruling in December 2009 pursuant to this exact same concern... http://www.icemiller.com/enewsletter/Jan2010/Communications_Decency.htm

 

That's why you file an LLC and have that own the website instead of owning it under your own name.

If I was a bit better off, I'd do it myself. Also, ya know, if I had some coding skills.

I think I'll take this one step further... I think it's the duty of coin collectors to protect their hobby. Why not a grassroots drive to raise the necessary funds to get a site like this started up? Hell, there's gotta be some lawyers out there that collect coins and could incorporate a company free of charge to help out... and I'm sure there's programmers who collect as well and might be willing to donate their services. All you have to worry about from that point onwards would be monthly server and storage costs, which could be provided by donations and/or advertising.

 

But of course! :thumb:

 

Nice idea, and IMO hosting fees are negligible. My sites / DNS cost a whopping total of $25 a month combined... I just use a bunch of javascript redirects for each domain name...

 

Not real sensible I'm afraid. Seriously think about it.

A disgruntled customer slams a dealer because he/she deems the shop's business practices as unethical? Others are influenced by this whether or not the person slamming them knows the first thing about coins.

Who defines ethical? With the multitude of avenues open to buy and sell coins why even bother with a dealer?
I'll tell you while asking a question. How many coins would you actually have a shot at if there were no dealers?

Many dealers are good and many are bad. That's a given but a total novice that looks up a 1932D quarter on the net and sees it listed at $14,000 in MS65 tends to ignore the $162 price for a G4 coin because they have no clue.
That same person could sell that coin on ebay and I'd be willing to bet they would get way less than retail. At times less than a dealer would offer if they have a customer for resale of said coin.

Slamming or praising dealers is real easy. I try to stay away from that. Knowing your coins and responsabilities as a buyer or seller? It really is up to you.

 

I have been collecting coins since I was 12 years old with the help of my father. He taught me how to grade and buy coins and pick honest dealers. His best advice was to return a coin once in awhile if I wasn't satisfied to test the dealer who sold it. If a dealer wouldn't allow a reasonable return it was time to find a new dealer.

When I was in my mid 20's I hit upon some hard times and had to sell a nearly complete collection of Mint State Mercury dimes, most with full split bands. These were purchased by mail from Harold B Weitz in PA, he had amazing coins and was honest and pleasant.

I checked the phone book (this was way before the internet) and went to five local coin dealers to see what they offered.

I acted dumb and found that two dealers totally low balled me and wanted to give me no more than the silver price. Ten cents on the dollar perhaps. Two other dealers gave me a better offer, maybe 25 cents on the dollar. The fifth and final dealer offered me almost 50 cents on the dollar. I sold him the coins and after I got back on my feet I made it a point to buy something from him every week until I moved back to New York.

The saddest part was one of the worst dealers worked out of a Catholic church thrift shop. I can only imagine all of the unfortunate widows he ripped off with no remorse while saying "God Bless you". Thou shall not lie!

There have been and always will be good coin dealers and bad coin dealers. Ignore the bad ones and support the good. And never judge a book by its cover...

 

Just post about buying a coin "off Ebay" and the ethics cops will come out of the woodwork. What a bunch of pious jerks.

Been there, done that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate how difficult business can be, and I don't begrudge the dealer for trying to make a profit. I understand there are a lot of rants in this thread about how much dealers suck, so I understand you getting a little defensive here.

On the other hand, my mom took the coins in to get an appraisal. She had no interest in selling, just to find out their value, and this jerk totally lied to her in the hopes of getting the coins on the cheap. That is not ethical behavior.

It's one thing to say, well the 1877 is worth between $500-$900 retail, but I would be willing to buy at around $200 or $100, or even $7. I need to get it certified, and I need to pay overhead and make a profit, so I can't buy it for retail. Tell the customer what it's worth, and then negotiate a sale price from there.

This idea that she should be educated prior to going into the store, and if she fails to do the research then anything is fair game is a crock. How many of you shop for stuff and actually talk to a salesman about the products before you buy? I just put in a patio and had no idea what type of gravel or sand to use, and guess what, I asked the freaking salesman at the yard what to buy. He is the expert, he should be helpful, not sell me the wrong stuff at an inflated price because he is overstocked.

Same deal with the coin store. They are suppose to be the experts, if I had a question about a coin and I could not expect a straight answer from the coin store then what good are they!!! They are suppose to be experts, yes you could get the same info on the internet, but all you brick and mortar joints will be out of business in 10 years if you don't provide good service to your customers for exactly the reason you complain about. If I have to do the research myself then I might as well sell it myself online too, and while I'm at it I will buy it there as well. She brought it in exactly because she did not want to do the research, that is what experts are for!!!

It is that attitude, about coins as well as many other products, from the sales staff that hurts their business in general. I would say it's even worse with coin dealers, this is a hobby, and if people new to the hobby start getting ripped off at the beginning how long do you think they will stay involved. This is not some dishwasher that everyone needs so it's no big deal, it's discretionary spending.

Clembo, edited do you mean putting quotes around mom? Do you doubt the story, think it's about me? It was a funny story, about my aunts and uncles, and some coins they inherited. It was super cool to find an 1877 IHC among her coins. If this happened to me I would say so, not make up some story. I understand you are a little defensive here, but it's that type of doubting a perfect stranger for no good reason that underlies exactly the type of behavior we are complaining about.

 

Exactly.

 

One person slams the dealer, another praises it. Unless the dealer is a horrible person altogether, I'm sure he'll get both good and bad reviews. It's part of business... you can't be friends with everybody. It would give dealers some incentive to treat their customers better if they know there's ramifications besides simply not being able to buy a particular coin a customer brings in or maybe losing a single customer.

Ethical is defined by an individuals standards of morality. If you think a dealer is unethical, share your story and tell us why... let us make our own decisions through gathering available data.

I very rarely buy from dealers, so this question is pointless from my perspective. I go for estate auctions and whatnot.

And if the dealer wants to make the sale, they'll find a polite way to educate a customer and explain why the value isn't that of an MS65 coin.

And how does that apply to our discussion of dealer morality? That IHC would fetch more than $7, by far, after fee's and whatnot on ebay.

What about moral responsibility? I understand that coin dealers have to eat, but they don't have to rip people off to accomplish that. It's their responsibility to maintain a strong code of ethics, and if they do not, they deserve to get smeared with the mud they created.

 

I agree, dealers should conduct business in an ethical manner. Yet, in my experience many, if not most, do not. As we have seen, most recently on Wall Street, as well as in countless other examples, an unregulated/under regulated capitalist takes advantage of the consumer.

I have not researched the court cases (precedence), but I would imagine an innovative lawyer could find a multitude of cases to use as a basis for a complaint against many dealers. If it has not happened yet, I would imagine, it’s a matter of time before it does. There is a column in Coin World that addresses these type of issues and I believe examples have been given as to “how far” a dealer can go (or not). I’d start with the fact that the dealer is holding himself/herself out as a professional and has violated the trust implied. Any dealer that offered/paid $7 for a $1,000 coin would be hard pressed to claim it was a mistake and numerous other examples could probably be found in their inventories.

 

I know the coin shop 45 mins from me purchased a general McPherson Bill serially numbered 0000000003 (not sure how many zero's). 2 of the first 4 were lost in the flood at the museum so this thing was very rare. the guy that sold it to him was mcphersons relative and there was all kinds of story lines behind it. Long story short, they robbed the guy and made a buttload of money. it was in coin world you guys might have seen it. they werent bashing the dealer but did an article about how rare it was and it was basically the first of the print since 1 and 2 were ruined.

 

Beef1020,

I did not mean it all that way. Sorry you took it that way. I put "mom" in quotation marks because she's your mom not mine.
Actually I believe your story and thank you for sharing it as it did bring out some good discussion.
If I didn't believe your story I would flat out state it or most likely choose not to comment at all.

Actually I have seen an inherited collection that contained two full sets of Indian Cents (minus the 1856 Flying Eagle) as well as a complete set of Mercury Dimes and Standing Liberty Quarters. Most were cleaned unfortunately but we bought them and paid VERY strong for the record.

Once again sorry you misunderstood my intent.

 

Wow, I totally misunderstood. I had this image in my head of you saying mom, and you doing the quote thing with your fingers No hard feelings, and sorry if it was a bit of an over reaction.

 

This already happens everyday. Dealers have incentive to be fair it's up to them how to go about it. Of the four dealers in my area I only went to two before I began working for one. My personal feelings and word of mouth influenced me.

Easy to say but does everyone have the same definition or paramaters when it comes to ethical?
The OP refers to a dealer local to his mom and yes his offer/appraisal was pathetic. However should his name be smeared all over the internet for people to "make decisions by gathering data"? Sure, why not I suppose but remember that the "data" would most likely be what someone has to say about a dealer most will never encounter.
I'll gladly admit that I have no love for the guys on TV, companies such as Littleton and outfits like Cash4Gold.
It's easy because I can back it up. I KNOW we'll pay way more than the TV Gold buyers. I know that large outfits charge too much because we, at times, sell to them because they pay high. They are also notorious for paying slow as well.

Ripping into a brick and mortar store on the basis of what one or two people has to say is another animal.

I still buy from dealers. My boss and the guy I used to frequent before I started where I am now. They respect me and I respect them.
My boss makes money on anything I buy unless he's in a great mood. I have no problem with that as if he weren't there I wouldn't see those coins.
If he wants too much I just say no.

Even though we're talking about buying here - what a great idea! Just so happens I pretty much do this on a daily basis and I KNOW I'm not the only one.
Realize that MOST that come into sell coins are NOT avid collectors. These are generally the people that are convinced you're trying to rip them off because you don't pay full book or internet value. They tend to look at the highest price and expect that.
Don't get me wrong many actually DO understand when given a quick lesson however many don't. Nothing like having these people bad mouth you.

I don't know how does it? You're comparing apples to oranges here I'm afraid. You've taken my example of a 1932D Washington quarter and applied it to the 1877 IHC.
I have already stated that $7 for the 1877 IHC was pathetic. At NO point did I say it would go for less on ebay.
I DID say that a 1932D Washington quarter in G4 would go for less than $162 on ebay. Apples and oranges.

You're right dealers should maintain a strong code of ethics and they do have to eat. So do used car salesman, pawn shop owners, resale shops, antique malls and the list goes on and on and on.
One may as well start a smear campaign against any business they choose but let me ask this.
Does that make the person starting the campaign any better in a moral and ethical sense than the people they attack?


To summarize. At no point did I say ALL dealers are great guys because they aren't. I've met my share of bad dealers. Even when I go to shows I generally only deal with a few.
I don't go around smearing the names of those I don't frequent though. I just don't deal with them or thank them for their time and move on.

I have worked many different jobs in my lifetime. I'll soon be 48 years old and have spent but the last two years of my life employed in a coin shop.
Be a dealer honest or not so honest we all basically run into the same situations on any given day. Until one has been on the other side of the counter one really doesn't know. I still learn at work everyday.

 

Thank you Clembo, your patience and cool temperment was and is awesome. I find it sometimes infuriating and most time comical that many on here have an inability to say anything positive about anybody that actually laid something on the line and tried or (heaven forbid) succeeded at earning a living at something they enjoy. I will also say that I'd be willing to bet a whole lot of cash (silver coins even) that most of the bad dealers are not in it for the right reasons. By right reason I mean love of learning, passion for the product or a general interest in the product they are selling. They most likely decided that it was an easy way to make a buck, and do a bad job at that, so they need to resort to shady, unethical or bad techniques to survive. Those techinques will bite them in the end.

I'm not really happy that the dealer was a weak dealer and tried to get cute, but I would think the best thing to do is move on.

I'm not questioning that this was your mother or anything, but how did she not know that you have an interest in coins?

 

This happened about a year ago and I just picked the hobby back up within the last month, so I would have been little help when she got the collection.