Indo Sassanians - Hog heaven!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Finn235, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I've been silent about this up until now, but it seems that a small hoard of early Indo Sassanian coins was dug up (mostly from my Series 1.1 and early 1.2) and after winning all of his auctions for a couple weeks, one of my dealers reached out to me directly and we negotiated a deal for the whole hoard!

    00a09402-5c1e-4c50-9c84-5f520fff35e9.jpeg

    That's 50 of 80 coins total I purchased.

    2020's off to a great start!

    The first two coins I bought from him arrived late last week; I am excited to dig into the rest after seeing these in hand!

    ZomboDroid 03012020173524.jpg

    ZomboDroid 03012020173444.jpg

    I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who collects these, but feel free to add your own examples, or any entire or partial hoards that you have bought up!
     
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    You may be right. I was interested in them a while back but never learned the series.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/gadpaisa.html
    My page does nothing but parrot some of what I gleaned from Living Without Silver by John Deyell, Oxford, India, 1999. I bought very few and never followed up their study.
     
  4. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Well, youre not the only collector of these for sure. I have several dozens, but you surely overtook me at great speed ! Makes me wonder, is there a rarity grading for collection focusses ?
     
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  5. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    John Deyell is a member of the Ottawa Coin Club, and a good coin buddy of mine. He knows a lot about Indian coinage!
     
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  6. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    John Deyell is a great numismatic scientist and the author of that inspiring and sought-after book, Living Without Silver as mentioned above.
     
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  7. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I sit beside him at our meetings, always learn a lot about Indian numismatics from him.
     
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  8. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Those are cool! Congratulations. I don't collect them, only have one...but I do like the designs.
     
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  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..wow...that's super kool man...:)
     
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  10. Clonecommanderavgvsvs

    Clonecommanderavgvsvs Well-Known Member

    Nice coins my good sir, I hope to pick some Sassanian coins one day
     
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  11. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Thanks all!

    What honestly excites me the most is to see two more of these in the lot (about center, on the right side, one upright, one upside down)

    Indo Sassanian 1.1.5-6 21 3.84.jpg

    I bought that from a similar hoard in early 2017 and haven't seen any more until now, including in any of the references on this series. I will need the coins in hand, but tentatively, I think these might all be die matches. Die matches in this series are extremely rare, hinting that probably millions of these coins were made, and nearly all of them were subsequently melted down for metal to re-coin over the centuries.

    That is an interesting point about our hobby in general - it seems like there is no limit to how focused one can get, especially for series like this one that did not have a Roman or Greek level of oversight at the mint.

    I collect the series generally (which I define as anything featuring at least some vestigial remnants of Peroz's coinage) although my focus is mostly on mapping the evolution from the series 1.2 coins (a few are present in this hoard) to the more common Gadhaiya - something that even Maheshwari glosses over. Deyell mentions this, and goes a step further suggesting that individual types could possibly be assigned to specific kings of the dynasty, which I am not sure I agree is possible. Maheshwari, on the other hand, goes into esoteric depth on the Sri Ha series, and makes excellent observations on his very large hoards of Malwa-style drammas.

    These early types are especially intriguing because I could probably collect thousands before I could articulate any sort of evolutionary path straight through.
     
  12. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    Wow! Excellent pick up ....I look forward to seeing your breakdown on these...
    Here's a couple of mine...
    finn hoard2.jpg
     
  13. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I don't collect them but am happy to share your excitement about acquiring this hoard! Sounds like you're going to have a blast :).
     
  14. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    A bit of an update- still chomping at the bit to get my 80+ coins in the mail (combined with ebay wins) - they should be here within a couple weeks.

    I told myself that I would cool off a bit, but then my dealer found my Kryptonite - a whopping 70-coin family reunion for my avatar!
    737e2b5b-5c30-4d44-93d7-4c49d5ae7162.jpg

    I'm hoping that the reverse have enough detail to allow me to finally crack the mystery of the sudden appearance of the "spire" atop the flame, here absent in the left and present on the right ZomboDroid 13102019112618.jpg

    And to top it all off - I spy a flip-over double strike!

    Thanks for bearing with my giddy rambling :D
     
  15. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    A whole hoard! That's almost paradise!

    EC8559DD-70A9-4D29-BBD4-9FB649722A09.jpeg
     
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  16. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    Pretty awesome! Here's hoping they help you make some progress on your research, which I hope you'll share with us.
     
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  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Can you tell me what I am seeing on the coin closest to the lower left corner? Which way is up? There is one coin near the upper right that is larger in diameter. This sometimes suggests an overstrike.

    My interest in these falls short of being tempted to but them byy the lot but it reminds me of the fun I had picking individuals out of such groups when they showed up at shows twenty years ago. Some hint as to why these differ or how they progress in terms of date or persons would make them much more interesting to an amateur like me. As is, I see half a dozen coins that I find more interesting or beautiful but I do not know why. You have a lot of work ahead. Keep us posted.
     
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  18. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    @Finn235 ......Nice group!....There looks to be some beaut's there.....I homed in on the same coin as @dougsmit .....Unusual no attendants and a very very different depiction of the altar? Will be interesting to see what the obverse looks like
    737e2b5b-5c30-4d44-93d7-4c49d5ae7162.jpg
    Here's one of mine showing the 'spire' atop the flame with moon and sun...
    normal_eyetogether.jpg
     
  19. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Thanks guys!

    @dougsmit and @Spaniard the coin in question is just a really off-center obverse strike. It is the ribbon in front of the nose, and the things coming out of the top are what's left over of the wings flanking the helmet. It isn't typical that these are so far off-center, but this isn't the first time I've seen it, either.

    What really stood out to me was this one
    20200128_202948.jpg
    At first I thought this was the holy grail of the series - an overstrike! But sadly, this is not the hair bun of a 1.2 coin but rather the center of the fire altar, so a flip-over double strike which is still cool in it's own right.

    Additionally, I spotted two interesting coins from the tail end of series 1.2 (chin not attached to the head)
    20200128_203032.jpg
    The one on the right has the typical shoulder pads, but the one on the left has the early 1.3 style shoulder pads - reinforcing my theory that there is little or no political divide between the two series - they were probably made by the same dynasty, but the chief engraver felt creative one day!
     
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  20. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    First two batches (80 coins) made it in late last week! I've been a kid in a candy store going through them, even though I am beginning to have to re-consider how I had the coins classified in my first two passes. Information overload, but I'm getting there.

    A few to share for now...

    A fun early Hunnic portrait
    ZomboDroid 30012020200430.jpg

    Which is a die match to one in Imitations in Continuity (The obverse is a definite match, the reverse of Maheshwari's I think was double struck, so it's a tough call)
    ZomboDroid 05022020104327.jpg

    A lovely 1.1.3 - Fancy hat, large square jaw
    I had been pining for one in this style- I call it the "Super Sombrero"
    ZomboDroid 30012020200741.jpg

    Another Hunnic portrait, this one is a die match to the one in my OP
    ZomboDroid 30012020200823.jpg ZomboDroid 03012020173524.jpg

    A neat double strike - it seems that only half of the obverse was struck, so they attempted to strike the other half, but it shifted by a couple of mimillimeters.
    ZomboDroid 02022020200622.jpg

    Another piece in the puzzle of how series 1.1 morphed into series 1.2 - I have narrowed down the defining factor to be the presence of one row of fire altar ribbon (1.1) versus two (1.2) - here the attendant holds a short ribbon while another lays across the fire altar base (And yes that is a massive bulge in the coin - perhaps the die was damaged?)
    ZomboDroid 02022020200943.jpg

    But most exciting of all, I got two more die matches to my "swirly helmet" sub type

    Original (from early 2017)
    20180711_Indo-Sassanian-1.1.5-6-21-3.84.jpg

    New #1
    ZomboDroid 30012020200657.jpg

    And perhaps the most important discovery I've made in this series...
    ZomboDroid 05022020103239.jpg

    An obverse die match coupled with a totally different style reverse! This proves that:
    1) The dies were likely re-engraved from scratch when they wore out or broke, very likely by different people.
    2) The celatores were working under very lax quality control and had a lot of wiggle room to express their personal style
    3) That said, I'm baffled at how well the technical components held up over the century or three that these coins were made. It's almost as if the celatores were not given a coin and told "copy this" but rather a checklist of features to include on the coin. As someone who writes technical documentation for a living, this is especially fascinating to me.
    4) I'm still trying to figure out why the fire altar ribbons look like colossal shrimp
     
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  21. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    @Finn235 ...Wow some great pick ups..Looking forward to seeing your breakdown of these early types...
     
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