Indian Head cent artificial toning?

I was perusing eBay and saw this Indian Head cent that had what looked like nice toning. I have very little knowledge of these coins or any copper coins but was interested in starting an Indian Head set. This also means I should start learning! I want to fill the set with beautifully toned coins but have read people saying that copper doesn't rainbow tone. Here is the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/361291737115

Thanks in advance for passing on your expertise/knowledge to a beginner like me!

 

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Let me tell you how you evaluate these. Do you like it? Then it's Natural. Do you hate it? Then it's Artificial. In a nut...

 

Well, copper some times does rainbow tone naturally but I don't believe that is the case here. It looks like this coin was cooked, but I could be wrong. In any event, I don't think the TPG's would find it Market Acceptable.

Mike

 

Mike,
That's what I was afraid of. To my untrained eye it looks like it occurred naturally, at least compared to some other Indian Head's I have seen on eBay! It definitely seems too good to be true, although the dealer does have a no questions return policy. I couldn't get it sent off to a TPG and returned within the return window...

 

Did you see the 9? Looked like a RPD to me.

 

Seattlite,
Interesting find! Upon further inspection it loos like it might also be a DDR variety! http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/37550 If you zoom in on the letters it looks to match as well as the leaf on the left that connects to the rim. I'm no expert but there is definitely seems to be doubling on the reverse in multiple locations.

Wouldn't that be a good thing in terms of value? Also, what is your opinion on the toning?

 

I'm not sure I see the DDR, but I was focusing on the shield. If it is a variety, I would say those would definitely add to the value.

As to the toning, I think it's potentially artificial but I'm more concerned about the surface damage on the E and next to the C in CENT as well as the D in United and the scratch above the 9.

 

I can't say if the TPGs would find it acceptable, or not, but I don't like it.

This one, OTOH, I like.

 

They look small enough to me to allow the coin to be graded but it would definitely hurt the grade if it was eligible. This will be an interesting coin to potentially try and get graded I suppose. I'm now interested in the fact that it may be a RPD or DDR variety. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that?

 

First, kudos! If only every new collector both realized and accepted this before jumping in wallet-first, the benefit to this hobby would be immeasurable.

Now, the coin in question is an unattractive over-priced dog, with questionable surface conditions, you would be wise to avoid. We could also use this seller as an example of one to avoid as well. While I did not go through all of his listings, the sampling I took indicated that, generally speaking, overpriced, over graded, questionably described and imaged coins are his MO; a new collector purchasing from such a person will, sooner or later (that day always comes) be in for a very unfortunate surprise.

 

In regards to your wish to start putting together a set, and particularly with your desire for toned examples added to your newness to this hobby (or perhaps just series?), I respectfully urge you to find someone knowledgeable who is willing to assist and offer guidance. This person does not necessarily need to be a specialist in this series, but a dealer (onewho actually knows what they're doing as opposed to just thinking they do) or collector with both patience and experience. This in the long run could make an immense difference in the quality of your to-be collection. Another all-too-common issue worth noting is the "deal mentality". This, in my experience and perhaps second only to a lack of knowledge (although they go hand in hand) is the single biggest reason forpoor purchases and subpar collections. The desire for a deal or good price is human nature, so while there is nothing wrong with feeling this way, do understand that there are countless sellers, even dealers, out theremore than willing to use it against you in order to pad their pockets. There is a saying that is generally true: "there is no free ride in numismatics", and the sooner you realize and accept this, the better of you'll be. That coin which to the novice eye seems so very nice, attractive, and cheap may seem like a no brainer, but to the experienced eye may be something very different altogether, and this is not what you want to end up with a collection full of. Oftentimes paying up for high end (regardless of grade) and highly original examples with exceptional eye appeal, even if priced over "book" or CDN can not only offer greater long term enjoyment, but also offer more bang for your dollar. The simple reality is that such coins often sell themselves and are priced as they are for good reason. All things to think about, but please do before jumping in. Learn, ask questions, and take it slow, but most importantly, have fun and make your hobby yours.

 

I love Indian Cents, but not that coin. That gives you my opinion.

 

Thank you all for your advice! I really do appreciate it and I've really just learned to be extra careful with coins on eBay. I'm fully willing to accept that I may make mistakes and maybe lose some money in the process but it is my hope that I will learn from those mistakes to build a collection that I can be proud of.

I must have a beginner's eye with regard to Indian Head cents. I find this coin particularly pleasing but I'll reserve judgement until its in front of me. I have generally found that images typically don't do coins justice. That goes for any types of coins that I've dealt with. I'll more than likely return it but I want to see it first.

 

Let us know what you think when it arrives.

 

When wanting to buy higher grade coins such as that, stick with slabbed coins from the top 3 graders. Always ask yourself this question, "If the coin is really so nice as it may seem, why wouldn't a seller get it slabbed, and thereby get more money for the coin even when including the grading fees?" Especially a coin dealer. There are various exceptions, but that's a good rule to start with.

Good luck with your collection. I'm working on a set of proof Indian cents, the ones I can afford, the rest will be 63 and 64 type circulation strikes, or lesser grade if I can't afford that. It's a formidable task, but frankly, in my view, half the fun of collecting is the chase looking for the coins you want.

 

Hey Stephan,

Thanks for the comment! It is a little suspicious to me that a lot of these coins aren't slabbed. I guess I have a desire to find "gems" that, for whatever reason, failed to get slabbed. I'm not looking for a steal as much as I'm looking for genuine, natural, and gradable coins worth the patience and effort to acquire. As you suggest, these coins are probably few and far between and take a level of expertise (that I currently don't posses) to identify. I, like you, enjoy "the hunt" and that's really what has drawn me to the hobby but I think I'm up for the challenge.

I didn't really consider proofs when I started looking at building an IHC set but after looking at some of the different coins available I'm beginning to consider going the route you described. I think the proofs are gorgeous and frankly not too expensive (generally...). They also seem to often have nice toning that the circulation strikes do not. I still haven't completely made up my mind though.

 

If that is the case, would it worth more than what the value of this coin be ? I am not an expert into the variety stuff. To me this coin doesn't look too good to be what it suppose to be. It look like it has been clean somewhat '

 

I would not think of buying this coin unless I could see it in person before I buy it. I don't believe it would grade straight. It's been dipped at least once if not more. I'm with all of you on this one, wouldn't touch it.

 

As a business model, I believe that trying to find unslabbed coins on ebay, and thinking they are steals that can be slabbed and gain a nice profit, is a stone cold money losing proposition in the long run. Sure there are stories on here and every coin forum about those who did it once or a few times successfully, perhaps sometimes for a nice profit, but of course they don't mention all the losers they had.

Be patient, be aware of market values and trends, and get the best price possible on slabbed coins. There are always deals out there on the coins you want, and timing is everything. I personally think the next step in coin grading will be the TPG's eventually listing on the slab whether the coin is dipped or not, and slabbed coins labeled undipped, I believe in the future will sell for an extraordinary premium over dipped coins.

 

BTW, those "stickers" on the coin slabs are one of the most useless things I've ever seen. In my opinion, I'd like to see a "sticker service" that would indicate if the coin is dipped or not - that to me would truly add a premium value to the coin.