Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
US Coins Forum
>
In Numismatics, is there a difference between forgery and counterfeit?
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Jaelus, post: 4239501, member: 46237"]Yep. I disagree there.</p><p><br /></p><p>To me genuine is:</p><ul> <li>Genuine dies</li> <li>Genuine planchets</li> </ul><p>That's it.</p><p><br /></p><p>If a coin is struck with genuine dies and genuine planchets by the original mint, then it can be authorized or unauthorized. Authorized would just be a typical coin. Unauthorized could produce a fantasy piece like the 1913 V nickels, or it could produce a non-monetized coin. This is a genuine coin indistinguishable from others struck by the mint, except it never receives authorization to be monetized. It's not a counterfeit! All coins essentially go through this state prior to release. If someone sneaks that coin out of the mint and uses it to purchase goods, it becomes a counterfeit at that time (though it is academic as it is more than likely indistinguishable from a business strike).</p><p><br /></p><p>If the coin is struck by another source with genuine dies and planchets, then it could be a fantasy piece (if the actual coin was never produced), a restrike (if struck with the intent to produce a restrike), or a counterfeit (if struck with the intent to defraud).</p><p><br /></p><p>But the key disagreement here is in the importance of intent. Without intent to defraud, you cannot produce a counterfeit, even with the same materials and processes used.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is not just my opinion, it is the actual dictionary definition of the word counterfeit, as well as the interpretation of the term by the US Government.</p><p><br /></p><p>If you look up the word <i>counterfeit</i> you'll find something like this:</p><p><br /></p><p>"Made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the <i><b>intention to deceive or defraud</b></i>. A <i><b>fraudulent</b></i> imitiation."</p><p><br /></p><p>In other words, if the intent to defraud isn't there, it's not counterfeit.</p><p><br /></p><p>The US Government also agrees with this definition. If you read through the <a href="https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title18/html/USCODE-2009-title18-partI-chap25.htm" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title18/html/USCODE-2009-title18-partI-chap25.htm" rel="nofollow">Counterfeit Deterrence Act of 1992</a>, in every section that introduces a definition for the act of counterfeiting, it uses similar language to this:</p><p><br /></p><p>"Whoever, <b><i>with intent to defraud</i></b>, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be..."</p><p><br /></p><p>So no physical part of the process of producing the coin makes it a counterfeit, only the <i>intent to defraud</i> does.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Jaelus, post: 4239501, member: 46237"]Yep. I disagree there. To me genuine is: [LIST] [*]Genuine dies [*]Genuine planchets [/LIST] That's it. If a coin is struck with genuine dies and genuine planchets by the original mint, then it can be authorized or unauthorized. Authorized would just be a typical coin. Unauthorized could produce a fantasy piece like the 1913 V nickels, or it could produce a non-monetized coin. This is a genuine coin indistinguishable from others struck by the mint, except it never receives authorization to be monetized. It's not a counterfeit! All coins essentially go through this state prior to release. If someone sneaks that coin out of the mint and uses it to purchase goods, it becomes a counterfeit at that time (though it is academic as it is more than likely indistinguishable from a business strike). If the coin is struck by another source with genuine dies and planchets, then it could be a fantasy piece (if the actual coin was never produced), a restrike (if struck with the intent to produce a restrike), or a counterfeit (if struck with the intent to defraud). But the key disagreement here is in the importance of intent. Without intent to defraud, you cannot produce a counterfeit, even with the same materials and processes used. This is not just my opinion, it is the actual dictionary definition of the word counterfeit, as well as the interpretation of the term by the US Government. If you look up the word [I]counterfeit[/I] you'll find something like this: "Made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the [I][B]intention to deceive or defraud[/B][/I]. A [I][B]fraudulent[/B][/I] imitiation." In other words, if the intent to defraud isn't there, it's not counterfeit. The US Government also agrees with this definition. If you read through the [URL='https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title18/html/USCODE-2009-title18-partI-chap25.htm']Counterfeit Deterrence Act of 1992[/URL], in every section that introduces a definition for the act of counterfeiting, it uses similar language to this: "Whoever, [B][I]with intent to defraud[/I][/B], falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be..." So no physical part of the process of producing the coin makes it a counterfeit, only the [I]intent to defraud[/I] does.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
US Coins Forum
>
In Numismatics, is there a difference between forgery and counterfeit?
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...