In need of some advice

I see off center ancients all the time while buying small, very inexpensive, Greek bronze ancients. This little $12 "puppy" that I have not ID'ed yet sorry: (6.44g
16-17 mm) is not the best example but it was on my desk.

 

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That wasn't my point at all. The example you posted is off-center, but the legends are complete on the portion that's on the flan on each side. That isn't true of the example in the OP. My point, which only @dougsmit seems to have acknowledged, is that the tops of the letters on each side are missing even though there's plenty of room for them on the flan. Something that wouldn't happen merely as a result of an off-center strike. But would happen if an original, genuine coin struck on a flan that was too small for all the lettering were used as the "mother" coin for a fake on a larger flan.

 

Again, not my point.

 

Insider, posted: "I'll ask the ancient collectors here to blow up the image of the OP's coin and discuss what you see. I'll start (knowing NOTHING about these coins at all.) Eventually, a member will post images of 100% known genuine examples.

What I see:

1. Perhaps the "X" in the surface indicates someone along the line thought it was a fake.

2. The coin is 100% die struck.

3. The figures on the reverse look crude compared to the obverse style and the "dot" is not centered in the circle.

4. @DonnaML sees the unusual lack of complete lettering filling the rest of the planchet.

5. Who will be next?

 

I see you point, @DonnaML.

 

Donna is correct. When the design of a coin ends before the flan, it can be the sign of a transfer die forgery. Say the coin used to make the transfer die was off center and part of the legend or beaded border or feet of the horses or something like that was off the flan. When they make the transfer die, it is missing this part of the design too. When the transfer die is struck on a larger flan to make a counterfeit then that part of the design is also missing. I always check for this when looking at Greek coins especially. Weird flan shapes and poor strikes can also cause this problem but it is not a good sign.

NGC ancients experts have looked at literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of ancient coins and are among the top experts in the world. That is good enough for most people, check out the premium prices that ancients get in NGC slabs. They are doing a really valuable service to the community by helping to weed out fakes.

John

 

Theodosius, posted: "Donna is correct. When the design of a coin ends before the flan, it can be the sign of a transfer die forgery. Say the coin used to make the transfer die was off center and part of the legend or beaded border or feet of the horses or something like that was off the flan. When they make the transfer die, it is missing this part of the design too. When the transfer die is struck on a larger flan to make a counterfeit then that part of the design is also missing. I always check for this when looking at Greek coins especially. Weird flan shapes and poor strikes can also cause this problem but it is not a good sign.

AFAIK, we are all in agreement with this: NGC ancients experts have looked at literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of ancient coins and are among the top experts in the world. That is good enough for most people, check out the premium prices that ancients get in NGC slabs. They are doing a really valuable service to the community by helping to weed out fakes."

Counterfeiters' are greedy. Isn't this an inexpensive coin? If it is a fake, shouldn't there be more around like this? Anyone have an image of a 100% genuine coin we can look at or is this expensive and rare?

 

First off, thanks for all the replies and discussion about my coin. I'm learning quite a bit about what may or may not be wrong with the coin, and I'm sure this knowledge will benefit not just myself, but also others if/when they have a similar issue.

Here are some shots of the edges taken with my phone. I'm not sure if these provide any more signs of forgery or not. Can anyone tell me what they think?

 

If NGC experts can't decide if it's fake or not while holding it in their hand and looking at under their microscope it's unlikely we can tell you any more from looking at photographs.

I would just return it and get your money back and move on. Otherwise it will always nag at you.

 

This is a known fake I got burned with a number of years ago. I think it demonstrates what @DonnaML is describing. The design or lettering ends before the flan does.

 

I'm sure I learned to look for this kind of thing from somebody here. Unfortunately, I can't remember who it was so I can give them proper credit.

 

Your edge photos are interesting.
I don't see any large, thick file marks.
However, your photos are not high resolution enough, to be able to see, if there are any small, fine/thin file marks.
If someone used fine sandpaper on the edge of the coin, then that would created many parallel, fine/thin file marks.
Do you have a loupe, and/or a USB microscope?
You can buy a decent USB microscope, one with a light source, and a stand, and a knob which would allow you to raise and lower the microscope, and a fine adjustment/focusing knob, that can be connected to a desktop computer via a USB port, for $100 or so. If you have a Windows desktop computer, then you can use Microsoft's Camera application, to view the coin, on the computer monitor, and even take photos/screenshots of what you see. It took me a little bit of time, a couple of hours or so, to figure out, how to use Microsoft's Camera application.
Here's the microscope, that I bought from Amazon, in 2018. It looks like it's still available, for $76 plus tax and shipping. It's not perfect, but it's usually good enough, for my purposes. For example, I can use the big knob, to raise the microscope shaft, and then I can hold the edge of a coin, under the micrscope shaft, to view and photograph the edge of the coin. If this link doesn't work, then you can find the microscope, by searching Amazon for the exact phrase "Vividia USB Digital Borescope".
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005P40OXY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And a cheap 20x loupe only costs $50 or maybe less.
I bought an Eschenbach 20x loupe for $100 from Wizard Coin Supply for $100 in 2009, because I heard that Eschenbach is pretty good, but I don't know if it's significantly better than a cheap or medium priced 20x loupe. I'm not a loupe expert.
You may also want to buy a 10x loupe, because a 10x loupe is sometimes easier to use, than a 20x loupe, for instances when you don't need the 20x magnification.
I think Wizard Coin Supply also sells stuff on either Ebay or Amazon, or maybe both.
I use my microscope, much more often, than my loupes, because my microscope is easier for me to use, than my loupes.
Were you able to examine the edge of the coin, up close, to see, if there are any small, fine/thin file marks?
If NGC told me, that my coin had file marks, then I would use my microscope, and my loupes if necessary, to examine the edge of the coin, to see for myself, because I would like to see for myself. I would want to, at least try, to see for myself. Such things, are always good learning experiences.
NOTE : NGC probably has better, more powerful microscopes, than I have. Therefore, NGC may be able to see certain things, such as extremely thin/fine file marks, that I couldn't see. I don't know.

 

Is this a rare coin?

Putting aside NGC, how extensive is the edge filling? It is possible that it might have had a mount removed, especially if the filling is on a spot at 12 o'clock obverse or reverse.

The bottom line is if you are still happy owning the coin. Whether you bought this coin from a dealer or auction house, you should be able to return it. The most reputable dealers will take the coin back unconditionally. Auction houses are trickier, since you really need a reason, which you have with the filed edge. Was this mentioned by the auction house in the lot's description? That is a condition that needs to be included, since it is impossible to see the filing in the obverse or reverse view.

I had NGC return a sestertius with no decision. I sent the coin to David Sear who issued a certificate of authenticity.

 

It seems to me that the weakness for a portion of the legend, where the flan is wide enough to accommodate it, is likely due to uneven pressure at the time of striking. Looking at the OP coin, I think the reverse was the hammer die and the obverse the anvil die. My experience collecting ancients and other hammer struck coins is that the hammer die side usually has the best strike. The mint worker is able to align the hammer die to deliver a blow, possibly two. The anvil side alignment is literally hit or miss. The flan might shift, or the blow may not be dead center on the hammer die.

Another factor to consider is the annealing of the flan. If the flan is not heated sufficiently before striking, the resulting impression will be generally shallow or uneven. Add yet another possible factor, worn die, with devices and lettering in stages of deterioration, and the picture becomes more complicated.

 

A few images of imperatorial denarii in my collection which illustrates what Donna mentioned (I think). The first is the most extreme example.

The OP coin is also from the imperatorial period, and a military issue too. Not too surprising if there are strike issues.

The lack of legends even though there is sufficient flan space is relatively common during the imperatorial period. Sorry for the low resolution.

No comments on the authenticity of the OP coin, although the ring of missing legends does seem a little strange to my eyes.

Half the design missing


Just a little of the reverse legend


Missing design in the middle of the reverse

 

But in the case of the OP coin, the letters are incomplete on both sides, including on what you posit to be the hammer side (the reverse). Also, it looks like the letters go immediately from 100% clear to non-existent, on either side of the rim line (if you extend the circle all the way around). If they gradually faded away, your theory of uneven pressure might seem more likely to me to be true.

 

That edge is odd. I am not familiar with the production of Roman Republic denarii, but I assume the technique to made the flans is more or less similar to flans made in the preceding centuries: cast flans. The flans generally have smooth edges.

The exception are "folded flans", a way to create new coinage using existing coins. Basically this method requires taking an existing coin, heating it up, hammering it flat, and folding it once and repeating the process. The result of this approach is a coin with an irregular, wavy edge, as shown below, an Athenian owl that might be an imitation:



The breaks on the edge of your coin are straight, not wavy and seem to be simple cracks. I don't know what would cause these cracks to occur.

Well, if you are losing sleep over this coin, I suggest that you return it. As the saying goes, there are plenty of other fish in the sea (at least prior to global warming, that is).

 

The edge looks to me like one silver shell (obverse) fitted inside another (reverse) with traces of filing. Ancient counterfeit? Modern reproduction?

 

I have looked the coin over with my loupes, and I really can't see any fine file marks. Though now that some of you have described a little better what I should be looking for, I'll have another look tomorrow (I left the coin at another location from where I am now). I am trying to learn and I do truly appreciate all the help and advice I've gotten.

No, I checked the auction listing again and there was no mention of any issues with the coin at all.

I thought for sure when I sent it in that the "X" would earn it a "graffito" notation on the slab, but nope -- no mention of that. Maybe your theory is right, though.

Ultimately I am contacting Lucernae Numismatics who auctioned the coin to me and we'll see what they say. I would like a refund now because there just seems to be so much doubt about the coin being legitimate.

Thanks again for all who commented.

 

Dave Vagi's post addresses edge filing -

https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/ngc-ancients-third-side-coin/