In need of some advice

Just got back a few denarii I sent in to NGC to get slabbed. I know some folks are vehemently against that in the first place, but I ask you to put that aside for a minute to give me some advice.

One of the coins came back as "EDGE FILING THUS NO DECISION." They are not flat out calling it a fake, but it seems there is significant doubt here, right?



This hasn't happened to me before so I'm not quite sure what to do next. For those with more experience than myself, what would you do? Contact the auction house and ask for a refund? Send it to someone else to be authenticated? Just pretend like nothing happened and keep it in the collection raw?

Any guidance from someone who has been here before would be greatly appreciated.

 

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Sounds conclusive to me. I would reach out to the auction house.

 

Agreed. One thing I'd be curious about: is it unusual on a genuine coin for a portion of the legends on each side to be "off the flan" even though the flan actually extends far beyond the legends?

 

I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems to me, like there are 3 possible reasons for edge filing, of an ancient coin.
1. The edge of the flan was filed in antiquity, before the coin was struck. Or, in the case of cast coins, after the coin was cast. I don't know, how often this happened. If I remember correctly, some ancient struck coin types, were known, to have the flans' edges filed, before being struck. I don't know, if your coin, is one of those known struck types. One ancient coin type, that I know for sure, had its edges filed, is certain ancient Chinese cast coins, whose edges were filed, after being cast. If your struck coin, were one of such types, then it seems like, probably NGC would know about it, and would tell you about it, in the NGC body bag comments.
2. Someone clumsily/inexpertly cleaned the edge of the coin, using sandpaper or a file, and created the file marks that way. Sometimes, such "cleaning marks" or "cleaning scratches", also happen, on the obverse or reverse of an ancient coin. Cleaning scratches are never desirable, but they are especially worrisome, if they are on the edge of an ancient coin.
3. The coin is a cast fake, and someone filed or sandpapered the edge of the coin, to hide the casting seam.

In any case, it seems like, a reputable auction house, would write "Edge Filing" in the auction listing, and would explain in the auction listing, if the coin were of a type known to have had its edges filed before being struck.
However, even reputable auction houses, sometimes miss things, like tooling or edge filing, or even fakes.
The NGC Ancients persons have an excellent reputation. Therefore, a reputable auction house would strongly consider the NGC statement, that the coin has edge filing, although the auction house may want to examine the coin to double check the edge filing.
I recommend, that you double check, using a Loupe or microscope, to see if you can see the edge filing.
If you find edge filing, then take photos, of the edge filing, if you can.
If there is edge filing on the coin, then it seems like, a reputable auction house, would refund your money, because edge filing should be noted in the auction listing, just like tooling should be.
Also, I recommend, that you search the Forum Ancient Coins "Fake Coin Reports", to see if the coin matches a known fake.
And also, I recommend, that you search ACsearch, and compare your coin, versus the ACsearch examples, to see if your coin has any differences, that are not on any of the ACsearch examples, which may indicate, that the coin is fake.
Perhaps, other CoinTalk persons, will have better advice, than my non-expert advice.

 

Yes, it does have a worn feel to both sides of the coin on one half. The worn halves match up when you flip the coin over. I have no idea what would cause that that kind of wearing, or if it's not wearing at all, how did the legend not get stamped in that area?

 

I am starting to have bad feelings about NGC and the way they grade, Am I a little too paranoid?

 

I don't have an opinion about this coin. The one below is a condemned fake struck from copy dies made from a coin that was on small flan missing parts of the legend. The tip is that line separating the partial letters from the unstruck area. What would we have if these same fake dies where struck more weakly so this line disappeared?

Like NGC, I recognize three levels of 'genuine'. There is 'Genuine', 'Not Genuine' and 'I don't know'. Isn't that better than guessing and being wrong? I would be interested in hearing the arguments in defense of this coin that kept it from being condemned for the reason Donna pointed out. At my level of ignorance, I would avoid this RR coin without worry. That is my privilege for not being a professional paid to be correct. NGC grader is one more job I'm glad I do not hold. It is not as high on the list as school bus driver or President of ........... (fill in country of your choice) but it is on the list.

 

Cinco, "EDGE FILING" is certainly no reason to reject a coin for slabbing; I'd give them a call & ask for an explanation . Several years ago I sent NGC a group of Chinese coins for slabbing & one coin was returned .



I sent the exact same coin to Heritage for auction & they sent the coin to NGC. Ironically NGC did slab it for Heritage .

 

Is it possible to show a picture of the edge ? An edge could also be filed to make a coin fit into a jewelry bezel. Is the filing all the way around ? An edge could have been filed in antiquity to hide a casting seam. With the coin in hand, do you notice any sort of casting signs ?

 

I believe they are not able to verify that the coin is genuine. They are not saying it is not, but they can't tell for sure. Filed edges may "hide" normal telltale signs of original production or counterfeit production and they do not want to commit to a coin that may not be real. Due to the relative ease of making a counterfeit ancient coin with hand cut dies (compared to a modern coin), there are not a lot of markers that they can use. The rim filings may have removed excess weight on a counterfeit or is masking other manufacturing marks. The best thing to do here is to carefully look at the filing and learn from it. Compare to other similar coins. Also pay attention during future buys, knowing that this could prevent slabbing. I once had a coin returned from grading for having a hole filled and smoothed. This was done really well and I did not see it when it was purchased. After getting it back in a body bag, I looked at it to learn from it. Now I am more cautious when buying these. (It was a flowing hair dollar that was worth about $1000 at the time.)

 

Lack of edge filing could be considered a reason to doubt some issues. My image here shows coins that IMO show not only proper and official edge filing but that show the person who did it was right handed. Understanding clues from 'fabric' is part of the study of coins.

Does it bother anyone that the modern NGC label shown as "Authenticity Unverifiable" also says "Guaranteed Authentic Only". I have never touched a modern slab (recall this is the Ancient section of Coin Talk) but I thought they did guarantee authenticity so I don't know what to make of that label. Come to think of it, I don't recall touching an Ancient NGC slab but I am getting forgetful anymore.

 

From what I know, it's definitely the case that NGC does not guarantee authenticity for ancients, but does for moderns. I am not sure what that guarantee means in practical terms if you buy a coin relying on the NGC guarantee and the coin turns out to be fake.

 

Cinco71, posted: "One of the coins came back as "EDGE FILING THUS NO DECISION." They are not flat out calling it a fake, but it seems there is significant doubt here, right?"

[No, all that ND indicates is they are saying they are not willing to say the coin is a counterfeit or genuine! Send the coin back since the damage was not noted in the auction description. They should take the coin back but they may block you from bidding again.]

sand, posted: "I'm no expert on the subject [Me either ], but it seems to me, like there are 3 possible reasons for edge filing, of an ancient coin.

1. The edge of the flan was filed in antiquity, before the coin was struck. Or, in the case of cast coins, after the coin was cast. [I agree, and by any previous owner. However, with experience, this is usually easy to determine ]."

2. Someone clumsily/inexpertly cleaned the edge of the coin, using sandpaper or a file, and created the file marks that way. Sometimes, such "cleaning marks" or "cleaning scratches", also happen, on the obverse or reverse of an ancient coin. Cleaning scratches are never desirable, but they are especially worrisome, if they are on the edge of an ancient coin. [Nope, no need to explain. ]

3. The coin is a cast fake, and someone filed or sandpapered the edge of the coin, to hide the casting seam. [The coin might be a fake with a filed edge - NCG could not decide; but any authenticator worth regarding including at least two authenticators working at NGC ancients does not need to see the edge of a coin to determine it is a cast counterfeit! ]

In any case, it seems like, a reputable auction house, would write "Edge Filing" in the auction listing, and would explain in the auction listing, if the coin were of a type known to have had its edges filed before being struck. [Makes sense to me.]
However, even reputable auction houses, sometimes miss things, like tooling or edge filing, or even fakes. [True and nice of you to mention in defense of the auction house! ]

The NGC Ancients persons have an excellent reputation. Therefore, a reputable auction house would strongly consider the NGC statement, that the coin has edge filing, although the auction house may want to examine the coin to double check the edge filing.
I recommend, that you double check, using a Loupe or microscope, to see if you can see the edge filing.
If you find edge filing, then take photos, of the edge filing, if you can.
If there is edge filing on the coin, then it seems like, a reputable auction house, would refund your money, because edge filing should be noted in the auction listing, just like tooling should be. Also, I recommend, that you search the Forum Ancient Coins "Fake Coin Reports", to see if the coin matches a known fake.
And also, I recommend, that you search ACsearch, and compare your coin, versus the ACsearch examples, to see if your coin has any differences, that are not on any of the ACsearch examples, which may indicate, that the coin is fake.
Perhaps, other CoinTalk persons, will have better advice, than my non-expert advice. [That is something that should have been done for sure. I should think that NGC already did that ].

lordmarcovan, posted: "Same thing happened to me on this Galba sestertius.



I'm pretty sure it was a genuine coin. I got it from a reputable Swiss dealer. Ended up returning it. Problem solved. They were happy to take it back and resold it- I think at a higher price than what I had bought it for.

I don't think that NGC result is necessarily the automatic kiss of death, but it's certainly cause for some concern."

[A "No decision" is just that. The ONLY concern should be that the coin is not "a self-authenticating, obviously genuine piece. That's why coins as the OP's receive a black mark. These days with excellent fakes being produced, if you take a corroded coin as the one above and file the edge, their is virtually no way to be 100% sure it is genuine. The OP's coin is not corroded so I guarantee there are several ancient experts somewhere overseas who will agree on its status one way or the other. ]

 

In U.S. coins, edge filing is often done to remove edge bumps or damage that would make the coin less valuable. It's huge defect because it was willfully done and not part of the minting process.

It's also well known that coins or planchets were filed at the U.S. mint to get the weight of the coin down to the legal standard. It done on a fairly common basis. Since it was a part of the minting process, it technically does not lower the grade, but can make the coin much harder to sell and therefore can have a significant effect on the value. This 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar has adjustment marks. The marks made it harder to sell when I let it go.





Maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me that the ancient people might have weighed the planchets before they struck the coins and adjusted them with files. It's also possible that an ancient crook could have removed metal before they passed the coin. The question would be, when was it done and for what purpose?

I know I have posed far more questions than answers, but I don't have all of the answers.

BTW NGC graded the coin I posted as an EF-40, which I thought was too high. I bought it years ago as a VF-25 and thought that it would grade VF despite the relaxed standards. That also may have made it harder to sell.

 

Sometimes I think that "Some pigs are more equal than other pigs."

 

A deceptive counterfeit cannot be determined by an internet image UNLESS diagnostic markers are found. In spite of that, let's stop posting pictures of US coins and discussing edge damage. I'll ask the ancient collectors here to blow up the image of the OP's coin and discuss what you see. I'll start (knowing NOTHING about these coins at all.) Eventually, a member will post images of 100% known genuine examples.

What I see:

1. Perhaps the "X" in the surface indicates someone along the line thought it was a fake.

2. The coin is 100% die struck.

3. The figures on the reverse look crude compared to the obverse style and the "dot" is not centered in the circle.

4. Who will comment next?

 

With all of the fakes out there from China and other places, I don't envy these guys jobs at all. I consider my ability to spot fakes to the weakest aspect of my numismatic abilities. I am constantly working to improve by building a high virtual file of fakes, but it's a never ending process. I've been a collector for 60 + years.

Grading is one thing, and I think I am pretty good at that from the American perspective. Counterfeit detection is much tougher.

 

It certainly seems possible for an ancient coin to be struck off-center, like any other error. The guy who was putting the flans between dies certainly could not have done it perfectly every time.

I bought this piece from a well-known, major U.S. dealer.