In God We Trust (til when?)

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Suarez, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    Now you're trying to put words in my mouth. I think it's worthy of consideration, as that's my personal belief. But anyone who does not so believe has every right to disregard it if they choose, and they can still spend the money just the same as anyone else. Which is why I don't consider the motto to constitute "establishment of a religion." Because there's no legal penalty for choosing not to comply or acknowledge the sentiment.

    To say that one's personal belief entitles them to suppress someone else's expression of religious sentiment, would be a clear violation of the "free exercise" clause of the same sentence in the Constitution that bans establishment. (Which is what is meant by "freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.")

    To quote the US Constitution's view on religion for sake of reference:

    (emphasis mine. And again note what it does not say: it doesn't say anything about prohibiting endorsement or promotion of a religion or religious sentiment. It cannot establish a religion by passage of a law.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I don't begrudge anyone writing whatever they want on a dollar bill, or stamping it into a coin's face. But putting a religious sentiment on government-issued money -- and "In God We Trust" must be a religious sentiment, or else "religious" is meaningless -- is putting words in MY mouth, and the mouth of everyone else who is a citizen of this country. It's just not right.
     
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  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Should we get rid of the Declaration of Independence too? How about every state constitution as they all mention God, creator, supreme being etc many of which even say Almighty God.

    Again the government is allowed to make religious statements, they just cannot establish an official religion. If it said “In the Christian God We Trust” that would be a violation, simply saying God is not
     
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  5. mlov43

    mlov43 주화 수집가

    Perhaps socialism. We'll see in about a year.

    But a big part of the "more secular by the day thing" is that the religious are forgetting that their religion isn't politics. And it isn't fear.

    The religious only really attract people to their worldview when they focus on making themselves better, more Godly people, and by extension, make the world just a little bit better to live in. Remember the "Golden Rule" thing?

    The example they are setting drives the rest of us away.

    I hope we keep "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the currency.
     
  6. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    Indeed, "In God We Trust" is a religious sentiment. I never claimed otherwise. As you can see in the passage of the Constitution I quoted though, nothing in the Constitution forbids Congress from expressing, promoting, or endorsing a religious sentiment. They are only prohibited from passing a law that establishes a religion. Which would entail declaring an official religion of this country, with legal penalties for not complying with it. What's the legal penalties for choosing not to agree with or acknowledge the sentiment expressed on money? None whatsoever. Therefore, no establishment.

    Putting "In God We Trust" on money is the government saying that. It isn't you or anyone else saying that. It is putting no words in your mouth whatsoever. Put your thumb over those words when you spend your money if you're somehow worried someone may think you agree with the sentiment expressed. I doubt most would care or even notice.

    You have every right to disagree. You have every right to say you disagree. You have every right to complain about the motto being there to whoever you can get to listen. If you can convince enough congressmen to pass a law to have it removed, you can do that.

    What you don't have the right to do is suppress any expression of religious sentiment (or any other kind of sentiment for that matter) you happen to disagree with. Your rights do not trump anyone else's. You don't like what others have to say, you have every right to cover your ears (or eyes). You don't have the right to cover anybody's mouth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  7. Nathan401

    Nathan401 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Lol, throwing out ridiculous blanket statements like this without any supporting facts is just silliness. No significant portion of Jews?! Muslims?! We both believe in God. What could possibly make you think it wouldn’t be supported by them.
     
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  8. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Reread the sentence, Nathan. I didn't say Jews and Muslims don't believe in God. I'm saying these religions in particular would not be in favor of this particular motto appearing on coinage. Proselytism is frowned upon by Jews and the word God itself is considered ineffable. Islamic rules would quote a passage from a Sura, not some watered down phrase. In fact, if it were up to Muslims our money wouldn't even feature portraiture.

    Rasiel
     
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  9. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    I think there is an opportunity to consider god as a concept rather than a spiritual being. What the thought of god represents is more important than the worship of that being. Most all laws are based upon the 10 commandments, not as prevention of sin, but as ways to live in harmony and protect the rights of others. In God We Trust takes on a different focus if we consider adhering to a concept.
     
  10. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    [QUOTE="bruthajoe, post: 4028689, member:. If it hasn't happened already, one day someone will complain that the national bird should be removed because it is a vicious bird of prey.[/QUOTE] As a wildlife biologist I must take exception to your anthropomorphic characterization of an eagle as vicious. It is not. It is a bird of prey. It does not kill but to eat or feed its young. It is at the top of its food chain (save for Humans who don't eat eagle meat anyway).
     
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  11. cwart

    cwart Senior Member Supporter

    Hmmmmm, looks like I may be the sites lone atheist... I personally don't have a problem with the appearance of IGWT on the buildings mentioned earlier, historic documents, or other places in public life where it has always been in place. As was pointed out, until 1864 (and even later for currency) it was not used on our coinage and to me this weakens the precedent for it being a permanent part our money. I don't think there is any real chance of it being removed any time soon, but it is something I would support.
     
  12. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Monkey Trials......
     
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  13. ewomack

    ewomack 魚の下着

    Spinoza used God in a very interesting way: "Deus sive Natura" or "God or Nature." He conceived of God as an ineffable power, a force that encompasses everything, that creates everything and to which all causal chains ultimately trace back. There is nothing anthropomorphic about this concept, in fact, it's mostly a mystery, something our puny human brains can only conceive of in part, at best. Einstein supposedly said "I believe in Spinoza's God" and I think that I might, too.

    I honestly don't know what to believe about anything anymore, but I want to believe in people more than anything else. I would love it if the motto said "In People we Trust," which would reflect Lincoln's "Of the People, By the People, For the People." I don't want to judge people by what they believe, because people often believe in things for shabby reasons and confirmation bias usually plays a huge role. I would rather judge people by how they treat other people, especially those that they don't agree with. That really matters in the end.

    So I'm all for changing it to "In People we Trust." Maybe if we say it enough it will come true?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  14. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    You guys forget that this inscription was stamped into a 2 cent piece during the Civil War, when passions ran high on both sides of the conflict. I daresay you would not find any where near such passion today. It was the most bloodiest conflict that this country has ever experienced, and more men died in that conflict than all the wars this country has fought, combined. The inscription was succor and hope for a valued future.......
     
  15. ewomack

    ewomack 魚の下着

    Has anyone read the Whitman book "In God We Trust" by William Bierly? It seems to cover this very topic and I'm curious what it has to say.
     
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  16. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer A Caretaker, can't take it with me

    I'm of the belief there are no deities. Basically atheist.

    I was born and raised in the Hebrew faith.

    The motto 'In God We Trust' has absolutely zero affect on me. I do not get offended by it, I do not feel a burning sensation in my hands when I :gasp: touch money, I don't express any disdain towards the accepted currency of this great nation.

    This comes from someone who was brought up with grandparents who practiced kosher dietary laws. I was bar mitzvahed. We even bar mitzvahed our son 20 years ago. I have since changed my thinking.

    You'd think having, what many here say, is a leaning towards the phrase IGWT represent a Christian deity would wring seriously wrong or almost exclusionary to me. You'd be mistaken. I didn't find it offensive while I was of the Hebrew faith and I still don't feel offended as a member of those who believe there is no god.

    What I do believe, people have taken this politically correct nonsense too far. Our coinage and currency are iconic around the world. Everyone, everywhere around the world accepts our money. Heck, they love it so much they counterfeit it. Our Founding Fathers had honest, noble intentions when they created this great nation. I don't believe their intent was, then or now, meant to insult, exclude, hurt, objectify, or degrade any newcomer to their new nation.
     
  17. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I'm still in favor of CoinTalk's policy toward religious and political discussion, but I've found this worthwhile. Thanks to everybody for remaining civil.

    I still don't agree with having this motto on our money, for the reasons I've described. But, when it comes to things that are wrong in the world, I figure I should have MUCH bigger fish to fry. :rolleyes:
     
  18. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Tell your dog I said hi!

    Holy cow! It's been months since you've posted on CT!


    In "holy cow" We Trust!!!
     
  19. Nathan401

    Nathan401 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Hear, hear!
     
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  20. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    This discourse among us, proves the fact that we can remain civil and understanding to all points of view. Many times in this thread, we could have gone off our rockers, but that didn't happen. :)
     
  21. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    I find the preponderance of this discussion overly protective of the right either to practice religion or not.

    My own belief is that the motto was / is intended to imbue a state of mind, that of subverting trust in oneself to trust in something much greater. A god, any god, while potentially offensive to atheists, would be the most universally recognizable benefactor of the chosen sentiment. Certainly, those who do not believe in a particular god, or even the notion of a god, can still appreciate the benefits to a society full of individuals reminded that they should trust less in themselves than in the greater good.

    “IN GOD WE TRUST” does not demand that we go to church, or even imply that we should possess religious beliefs. It calls us to make more of our communities than we make of ourselves.
     
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