In God We Trust (til when?)

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Suarez, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    I'm wondering where general sentiment on the whole issue of whether In God We Trust belongs on our currency from the collecting community. From what I can tell the population at large couldn't care less but a number of legal challenges have appeared over the years. These have so far been unsuccessful as you probably know but with America becoming more secular and diverse by the day I think it's only a matter of time.

    The opinion of the court rulings have so far basically tried to write it all off as "tradition" and being so generic that it's no longer really a religious message but, from a legal framework point of view, those are pretty weak arguments. If the Supreme Court were to hear a future case the legal team representing the status quo side would need a much sturdier argument imo. So the question becomes, is there such a case to be made or is the strategy pretty much to stonewall and hope that the issue remain in the background (or gets bogged down in lower court rulings if a new lawsuit shows up)?

    In case there's any interest in this thread I'd be happy to argue the underdog position!

    Rasiel
     
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  3. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    The reason "...America(s) becoming more secular and diverse by the day..." is because there are factions interested in completely changing what America is. Being pushed toward socialism. Being forced to incorporate cultures of those countries that are invading the "American Dream"; but only wanting it if they can keep the culture that they left. America, love it or leave, including our culture, our standard of living, our traditions, our slogans (which reinforce our cultures and traditions) and the fact that you can believe in whatever guiding spirit you choose. In God We Trust keeps us in focus.
     
  4. furham

    furham Good Ole Boy

    I can see this going downhill real quick. I personally like the tradition.
     
  5. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    People infiltrate the American Dream but fail to, or refuse to, understand that the American Dream is founded in religious freedom. Without that the dream goes away never to be seen again.
     
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  6. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    If it's even possible to discuss this without breaking the terms of the forum I would have to say, That if IGWT would be removed from coins, it would conceivably be removed from all government property (intellectual included). It is value on which the forefathers founded our constitution and removal would essentially undermine a very basic ideology of which created the nation. You have to keep in mind the link to the values that have created the articles and how it is integrated into the legal system. It is a balanced structure and IGWT is part of the foundation on which it has been built. It's not just a coin, it is property of the government which was created with these values.
     
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  7. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Well I could see this turning into a flame war and that's not my intent. I'm not going to pretend I'm more American than the next guy. What the "American Dream" is or isn't is irrelevant and just as actual dreams I'm grown up enough to see the ideal definition is going to change from person to person.

    What it comes down to is whether or not you feel the motto is a middle finger to anyone who doesn't trust in God and if so whether it should remain on the money. What I'm interested in seeing is if there's a valid legal argument.

    Rasiel
     
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  8. furham

    furham Good Ole Boy

    Legal yes valid no.
     
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  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    (Edited because my response was probably political/religious)

    Summary: I think the slogan is not appropriate for US coins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  10. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Yikes!
     
    PlanoSteve likes this.
  11. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd Supporter

    I have a nice example of the first coin to display the motto, the 1864 two cent piece. It was good for it to show up when it did and it's good to stay now.
     
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  12. Nathan401

    Nathan401 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    This shouldn’t EVER be changed, in my opinion only.
     
  13. Jeffjay

    Jeffjay Well-Known Member

    It's my understanding that it first appeared in 1864 after the Civil War and much pressure from the religious segment of the country. Then on our paper money in 1953 due to fear of the "Godless communists". I prefer our earlier God free designs that were non religious but don't think it's worth a fight to change it back.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  14. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    People immigrate to the USA for the dream. If our foundation is not acceptable to them then they should not come. If it "...is the middle finger...", then we need to reinforce it because they are not paying attention. However, they don't mind trying to change it once they get here. I suppose we have all heard that - there are no atheists in a fox hole. Well, the people that spent time in those foxholes would certainly jump in again if someone tried to take IGWT away from us. Our commitment to them makes the motto a legal contract from We The People.
     
  15. Jeffjay

    Jeffjay Well-Known Member

    There are atheists in foxholes according to an atheist friend who was both a marine and Vietnam veteran
     
  16. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    This thread is an potential time bomb because of the religious and political issues involved with the above titled posting. Unless you guys can keep these aspects out of this thread I'm sure that Jim will swoop in very soon......
     
  17. Islander80-83

    Islander80-83 Well-Known Member

    Let me ask you a few of questions.

    So you're wondering? From what "you" can tell the population at large couldn't care less? Where are you getting your statistics from?

    Are you in favor of removing IGWT from the American landscape?

    America is becoming more secular... Why is that?

    You should have started a poll.
     
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  18. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It's been challenged legally numerous times and failed everytime, there is no reason to believe that will change anytime in the foreseeable future.
     
  19. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    I am sure you are right. There are too many people making up the normal curve. I can't tell what a person is thinking when they are in that situation. I will not second guess your Marine friend - just welcome him home.
     
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  20. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Maybe better to rephrase this as a mental exercise. Suppose congress decided tomorrow to change the motto to something less controversial like "America the Beautiful" or whatever. They're going to approve the measure unless people make a good case for why it shouldn't be. To say "well, leave it alone because it's been that way for a long time" isn't a good argument. You can probably list off the top of your head half a dozen laws that were overturned after being on the books for a very long time. So what would be your for/against?

    I get that going to bat for unpopular views isn't something that comes naturally. To use myself as an example, as a homeowner I like that I can write off my mortgage interest. If the day ever comes when this tax break is eliminated you bet I'm going to be upset. However, I can't exactly say that it would be unfair. After all, poor people don't get to write off the interest on their credit cards.

    So if you prefer keeping the motto just as is I would think you'd have a vested interest in coming up with a sound argument to make your case to a non-coin person, or one who's on the fence. History shows that let-them-eat-cake isn't a good strategy in the long run. We can probably all agree on that much.

    Rasiel
     
  21. bruthajoe

    bruthajoe Still Recovering

    U.S. currency can be changed legally, give me a dollar and I'll give you 100 pennies.
     
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