Improperly Slabbed 1822 NGC Capped Bust Dime?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by BryceS, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. BryceS

    BryceS Member

    Good evening all!

    Although being able to afford an 1822 capped bust dime is a pipe dream for me at this juncture, I do enjoy scouring online auction sites for the capped bust dime dates that I need to complete my set. With that said, I was looking at Stack's and Bowers, and it seems that one of the capped bust dimes that they have coming up for auction is improperly slabbed by NGC. The NGC holder states that the coin is an 1822; however, given the size of the date, characteristics of the 10 in 10 C, and the relative position of the C in cents, the coin is certainly not an 1822. I wanted to ask you all, do you agree with my assessment? If so, should any action be taken to inform the auction site and NGC? Although I don't have an account with either entity, this seems like an egregious error.

    Here is a link: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-TTNAQ/1822-capped-bust-dime-jr-1-ag-3-ngc

    Thank you all, and God bless!
     
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  3. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    It's not 1822. Note the end of the banner in relation to the M in AMERICA on the only reverse die used for the year. Not my coin or pic.
    [​IMG]
    My guess would be 1833...maybe JR-6
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    By my reference works, this is not an 1822 dime. Great pickup there, @BryceS .

    Obverse:

    Date position and size is wrong.

    1822, the right edge of the second 2 of the date is under the left edge of the curl.
    This coin, the left edge of the "2" is under the left edge of the curl.

    1822, Star 1 is low on the bust and is very close to the bust.
    This coin, S1 is higher on the bust and farther away.

    On the reverse:
    1822, the left edge of the banner is under the right edge of E1.
    This coin, the left edge of the banner is under more or less the center of D.

    1822, the right edge of the banner is under the center of M.
    This coin, the right edge of the banner is under the left upright of M.

    1822, tip of stem is above the center of C2.
    This coin, tip of stem is above the junction of the serif.

    Below are the subject coin and the PCGS photo of a high-grade genuine 1822. You can readily see the differences.

    I don't have time tonight but maybe tomorrow I can identify which year's reverse this coin came from.

    Yes, report it to Stack's. I am sure they will not want this coin sold under their name. I am astonished it got past them. And NGC.

    @Jack D. Young , here's another one for your archives.

    3d5d1b2a-9442-46f9-b209-818558b37a96-tile.jpg


    31914383_45459157_2200.jpg
     
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  5. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Noted on the slab as JR1 but obviously not close...

    combo-genuine-o.jpg
    combo-genuine.jpg
    I have sent notes to my contacts at SB and NGC...
     
  6. BryceS

    BryceS Member

    Thank you for taking the time to reach out to Stack's and Bowers and NGC. Please, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you kept me updated on how this is resolved. Additionally, thank you to okbustchaser and Publius2 for attributional information.
     
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  7. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I closely compared the OP coin to 1833, JR-6 and found definitive points of dissimilarity. But, the OP coin does bear a very strong resemblance to 1833, JR-3 with all of the discernable characteristics in concurrence.

    And a close inspection of the date on the OP coin and I can convince myself that I am seeing 33 and not a modified 33 into a 22.

    Interestingly, the 1822 JR-1 is an R-3 coin but the 1833 JR-3 is an R-5+ coin. Greysheet pricing does not reflect that, however because the 1822 is a one-variety year whereas the 1833 as a year is common but the JR-3 is only rare as a die variety.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  8. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    And this is why I stick to half dollars. They're actually big enough to see. LOL
     
  9. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    The Lot has now been withdrawn
     
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  10. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

  11. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Unless I am seeing things (or worse) I think the OP 1822 Dime is real.

    Everything seems to line up when I compare the OP example with both of my examples.......even the position of the denticles relative to the devices seems correct.

    I have seen pictures of fake 1822's before, and those were quite obvious, but as I said, to me this one seems genuine.




    1822 Dime - My example + Another Fake ?? - October 2021.png 1822 Dime - Both of my examples - OBV:REV - GP 2021 .png
     
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  12. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    CORRECTION!

    Silly me....! I've just realised I was comparing with the wrong example.

    Yes, I agree when compared with the actual NGC example at the auction it is pretty obvious it is not genuine. I see also it has been withdrawn as it should be.
     
  13. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    TPG's response...

    updated cert.jpg
     
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  14. BryceS

    BryceS Member

    Is this a common occurrence? I've never sent in a coin for grading myself, but I was under the impression that NGC and PCGS are the cream of the crop when it comes to coin grading. It just seems surprising that NGC would authenticate a coin as an 1822 when clearly it is not.
     
  15. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

    Others here will know what goes on behind the curtains at NGC (and PCGS). My guess is that there is a hierarchy of graders at these grading companies. A coin of lower value might be graded/authenticated by a "newbie committee" and not need to be seen by someone higher up. For a coin with a much higher value, then it must pass by the eyes of much more experienced graders.
     
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  16. BryceS

    BryceS Member

    Thanks for the insight; I suppose that could explain how it got past them. Regardless, it is still quite surprising, as the 1822 is the key of the capped bust dime series. In AG-3, it has a book value close to $1,000 if I recall correctly.
     
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  17. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

    Yes, I'm surprised too. But the other side of this is that a grading firm is a slabbing factory. Imagine how many monster boxes of ASE coins they go through, and all the other submissions. There are so many coins that have to be processed. Mistakes will happen. I have an Arkansas silver commem that clearly has a "S" mint mark on it, but the slab identifies it as being from another mint. I researched the registration numbers for coins one number higher and one number lower than mine and found the "pair" to that slabbing error. I could get it re-slabbed, the error has no extra value, but I like the story.
     
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  18. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I have a core group of my collection consisting of "mechanical errors", misattributions and plain out counterfeits in genuine TPG holders...

    Although I have what seems like many, the % of "mistakes" to the # of coins slabbed is extremely small.

    One of my favorites could fill 2 holes in a cent date set:D:

    obv.jpg
     
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  19. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    Abe looks different:)
     
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  20. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    They got the grade right. 0.500 is a good batting average in baseball.
     
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  21. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Such a good eye, well done. Thanks for the lesson, be safe.
     
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