I'm feeling intimidated. Is this hobby easier than it looks?

Things that require study are fine, in fact that adds to the fun, at least for me.

I get scared, though, when I read about professional dealers arguing about whether a coin had been cleaned (recent thread, I forget which exactly). If the pros can't tell, how can I tell if I'm getting an OK deal?

The TPGs, according to people here, can be off by one or two numeric grades. There's a coin series mentioned here where MS65 brings about $10, MS66 goes for about $200, and MS67 for more like $6,000. I understand the vital importance of learning to do my own grading, but do I really have to learn to do it better than someone who does it for a living, in order to avoid overpaying by a factor of 30?

The "Eye Candy" thread in the US Coins forum showed examples of just how beautiful toning can be. But according to posts here, even experts can't always tell the difference between natural and artificial toning. How can the toned coins market be a safe one to buy in?

Then there's the counterfeiting problem.

Am I worrying too much and making too much of the difficulties? Since I'm more into technology than history, could I just wimp out and only collect moderns? But then, the series where two numeric grades multiplied the price by 600 was a modern.

"Collect what you like and don't worry about the economics" is sensible advice, but I hate the idea of getting a bad deal even if it doesn't actually matter.

Thoughts? Advice? Reassurance? Dire warnings? All input welcome.

 

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pt1. dont worry about what the pros say. do the research and make your own judgement. unless youre looking at a 1913 V nickel theres always more to find the one you like.

pt2. you arent trying to grade better then the tpgs. they make as many mistakes as any of us individuals could so you need to trust your eyes first and their words second.

pt3. toned coins is a personal thing. unless youre working on the #1 registry set theres alot of NT coins that go for blast white money. most of the AT is on ebay and not in dealers shops.

also all this deal talk - you shouldnt collect them to make money - its because you want them. i today bought a coin which i got taken a bit for on but everytime i look at that coin i dont think about the money i spent - i think about how great the coin looks (which i still need to take pics).

 

There is nothing wrong with being wary, but don't get paralyzed with fear. Learn all you can and then limit your financial exposure to the areas that you are most comfortable in and also to amounts that you can comfortably lose. Lastly, there are quite a few internet testosterone driven posts where the folks are actually clueless about what they are writing. I know who these folks are and once you learn a bit you will know who they are, too.

 

I have a lot of the same thoughts as you and there's definitely a lot I don't understand about the finer points of the hobby, but I think this is a hobby where everyone decides on their own what their prerogatives are. For me, I'm mostly into completing sets - getting one of each date - not worrying so much about the condition. I buy coins in decent condition for a few bucks that other people only buy in uncirculated condition and pay hundreds for. But I don't see myself selling my collection anytime soon and I'm happy. Other people think the coins I buy are junk, but I don't feel like I'm in a contest with them for the greatest coin collection. So I say get what you like and don't worry about the grading unless you're dealing with serious money.

 

Here is reality.
This is a message board where there are massive amounts of knowledge.
I think most of them with the knowledge will share it willingly, just in their own style and it might take some getting used to.
It is still a message board where people can put on any persona they wish.
I think it is really imperative that you do not get intimidated by either, or worry about what others think about how you handle your hobby, it is after all your hobby.
There is not one poster on here that has not "missed" on at least one transaction, unless they've never bought anything.
Hobbies are about enjoyment, fun and fulfillment, not profit. Now if you happen to have a profitable hobby, you will most likely end up with a business.

In a nutshell, don't worry about it; live, learn and enjoy.

 

The areas that you are mentioning, surface alteration ( cleaning) , artificially induced chemistry ( toning), and grading are always going to be subject to dispute when they get to the event horizon, even by any top 2 dealers/graders, etc. due to subjective versus objective visioning. Yes, there are obvious cleaning jobs, obvious AT, center of a grading range, etc, but when the difference is very small, since we form our opinion by what we "see" rather than by a physical measurement, there will be variation of how the brain converts the photo/chemical reactions to light ( vision) to neural interpretation within the cerebral cortex (sight). We know the end point as that is what we "see", but it may not be real. The brain can modify what we think we see by other +/- factors and memory recall. In other words we each tend to cheat a little to see what we want or expect to see. That is why TPG use multiple graders for the end determination, and why on threads here since we don't each have the coin, there can be much debate. Experience helps with the memory modification of vision, so the more experience one has in grading and cleaning, etc.,the more firm their answer will be, but it might still be a minority.

Counterfeits, unless they are made by the same dies and process, will always have some minute, often very minute difference which will allow them to be identified. If not, and they are accepted by TPG, like some AT, they are market acceptable, and sell for the same price. IMO. Sorry so long.

 

While all of your points are valid, there is one very easy way to avoid most of the pitfalls you have mentioned; only purchase coins graded by PCGS & NGC.

The coins are guaranteed authentic and the grade is accepted in the market even if certain collectors disagree with the grade. It is also important to remember that just because you see collectors disagree with a grade assigned by a TPG, that doesn't mean the TPG grade is wrong. Typically, the TPG's are on the money and the collectors are wrong.

Nothing will completely insulate you from the toned coin market. There are no price guides for toned coins and no guarantees. There are nay sayers who will always say that toned coins are a fad and the bubble is going to burst. However, you can take solace that a coin that resides in a PCGS or NGC slab is deemed market acceptable. This does not mean that every slabbed coin is NT, they are not. But it provides you with a necessary insurance policy. Even if the coin is AT, if it is in a PCGS or NGC slab, you will be able to sell it. And if it is an eye appealing AT, you will usually get a very good price. I personally have paid 20X wholesale for coins that are widely regarded as AT. I did so because they are in NGC slabs and are drop dead gorgeous. I have no doubt I could sell those coins and recoup most of my initial investment and maybe make a profit.

Coin collectors are a funny sort. And the ones that frequent the coin forums are the funniest of the bunch. There is almost a fanatical obsession about getting good deals on coins. The general consensus is that if you collect coins and don't make a profit that you are an inferior collector. That is a bunch of crap. This hobby unlike most others provides you with the opportunity to make a profit or at least recoup a large portion of your initial costs. On the flip side, my brother spends $10K a year for the privilege to play golf at his country club. It helps to put the hobby in perspective.

Don't worry about losing money, but at the same time, educate yourself so that you are not throwing money away. The fact that you even posted this thread leads me to believe that you are on the right track. Now loosen up and enjoy the ride.

 

I tried grading coins for about my first year, than I said to heck with it. The golden rule is a coin is only worth what you are willing to pay for it and what it sells for. I do not bother with grades anymore, I just try to get the nicest ones I can afford. When I sell coins, I take the best picture I can and let the buyer decide from there, I have had a lot less problems this way. I do admit that I want to get my better coins graded my a tpg at some point so as to validate their authenticity for ease of value and sale when I die for my loved ones. Besides all this you just have to love these shiny little discs to want to keep collecting them.

 

PS, your not crazy either,
this guy
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
bought a couple rolls of silver dimes and is now an avid collector of the modern commeratives...that just might qualify me????

 

Being able to deal with making a mistake and learning from it are important skills to have in this hobby. It contrasts the joy of doing it right and enjoying coins of true merit. Look both ways before crossing the street and develope a band of collectors and dealers that trust each other. There is joy in this hobby but it is in proportion to how prepaid one is. JMO

 

Good points already brought up by all.
I would like to add:

Your reading CT and seeing everything all at once. Think if you read a forum from all the car dealers and buyers...you'd never want a car again or a doctors forums...
Like LeHigh said buy from PCGS or NGC and you should be rather fine. Plus your not talking about going for the top registry that's when they get even more funny.

 

So it's really not crazy most of the time?

 

I concur.

No offense dctjr80, I don't concur.

IMO in a nutshell, I believe that having some semblance and notion of knowing what a particular specimen grades at, including factoring in attributions etc., empowers one to know whether they are transacting a specimen at a mutually-fair price - most especially as a buyer. Solely IMO from a selling perspective, IME typically a specimen can be "tossed in the wind" at auction, and most times demand will deliver a price that the market bears.

 

Everything you mentioned is why I like buying direct from the source, The US Mint. Authenticity is not in question and I get to cherry pick high grades, not buy them from someone who believes it's grade is higher than it is.

 

That's great that this approach works for you.

For myself, who focuses on Colonial / Early States / Pre-Federal / coinage, the U.S. mint isn't an option.

And a lot of other collectors, for instance, like those who collect Classics and/or EACs, also don't have such an option.

 

You bring up valid points, and it is easy to feel intimidated at times. You may want to focus on what makes you happy in the hobby. For me, it is the hunt so I have now focused on cherry-picking varieties and seeking out a list of targeted coins. It does takes some patience, but I am having fun and that's what matters. No worries, you will find your niche. TC

 

Of course the TPG's are going to make mistakes, but you must keep in mind that the graders "go to bat" thousands of times per week. I'd like to see a pro ball player have that many "at bats" per week and still maintain a .750, .800 or .850 average.

Yes, grading is subjective, and the major grading services can and will vary in their opinions, but once you have looked at thousands of certified examples (going to coin shows helps) you will begin to see trends in how those opinions are formed. It is best to stick to the top two, NGC & PCGS (in no particular order). Next in line are probably ICG & ANACS, but below that, all of the rest are considered third-world grading services that will consistently over-grade and/or slab problem coins.

Naturally, you don't want to get ripped off or overpay for a coin, and that is where searching auction archives can help you determine a reasonable price. Price guides like the Red Book, Coin Values or Numismedia are all just that, guides! Most of them list prices that are often higher than true retail. The CDN Greysheet can also help because it gives you ballpark figures of what most dealers are willing to pay for sight-seen coins.

If your sole purpose for collecting coins is to maximize the return on your investment, then forget it. Buy real estate! But, if you find pleasure in collecting coins as a hobby, you will never go wrong. You'll make some mistakes along the way. Anyone who says they haven't is only fooling themselves. Take your time and don't make rash purchases. Asking questions in forums like this before you make your decision will help to minimize those mistakes. Sure, you'll get varying opinions, but if we all thought the same, this world would be pretty boring.

The most important thing is to have fun!

Chris

 

Just my little two cents... You clearly seem interested in buying as an investment, or profit primarily, and having a hobby as a secondary motive... If that is the case, let me recommend that you try to specialize in a couple of areas, or even just one... I am a compulsive reader and studier, and I can tell you that you will be far more effective in buying/selling/learning if you become say a Morgan Dollar specialist, or a Lincoln Cent specialist... Scan through these forums and you will find guys and gals that specialize in all manner of coins, but you will NEVER find someone who specializes in COINS, it can't be done. You will find that if you stick to a couple of areas, your knowledge base will increase far more rapidly... Your eye for grading those particular coins will be enhanced far more quickly... Also, do the research first and BUY second, never the other way around... Too many times, people (and I think most of us have done this at some point) find a coin, or a set that is old and appears to be in fine shape, and they get it in their head that 'Surely, this coin must be of value', only to go home and look it up and find that it is either commonly counterfeited or commonly found in higher grades and therefore not as valuable as you thought... In other words, if you want to make money, you CAN NOT buy impulsively... Plan your purchases just like you would a car, or a home...

Now as a hobby, forget about all that and just buy what makes you happy... I do a lot of research before I consider buying even an individual coin, but I saw a set of Jefferson nickels the other day that nearly brought a tear to my eye, it was so gorgeous... The dealer was asking about 30% more that I would have valued it at, but I want it badly, so I am going to go back and get it... Don't care if I ever turn a profit on it...

 

Buy what U like and can afford:kewl:

 

Yes Sponge, this is a very terrifying hobby and you will make mistakes. You will buy over graded coins for to much money. You will often pay more than a coin is worth but these are things that everyone does at some point. So, if you realize that going in, that you will not always make good decisions everytime and will often pay to much for what you get then ..sit back and enjoy the ride.

This is not an investment. It's a hobby. Hobbys are things you spend money on but dont expect much return ..so who cares if you paid $5.00 for a $1.00 buffalo nickel.

Dont spend more than you can afford to lose and don't let the fear of getting ripped off, get you down. It's happens ever second of everyday somewhere either at a coin shop, coinshow or online. Just do your best to know what you are buying and don't take every sales pitch as the gospel truth. Some seller have been known to misrepresent coins inorder to make a sale ..even more so in these tough times.