Ignoring an element of grading

Neither am I. It's a ten dollar term for what the third-party graders believe the market will bear on the coin. That's all it is.

 

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Remember this coin. I think I have have found it's cousin. Take a look at the photos below. These two coins are astoundingly similar in appearance.




Another extremely poorly struck Peace Dollar with incredible luster and eye appeal residing in a GEM state holder. Granted it is an ICG holder, but does anyone have a problem with this coin be graded MS65 or should the strike limit the grade even lower?

 

I think MS65 is fine for that coin. It is very clean and has tons of luster. I don't know what the exact guidelines are with strike quality...but IMHO, I feel that the MS65/MS66 barrier is where strike becomes really important. I have always felt that to earn a 66+ grade, the coin must have a good strike. I know the original coin didn't (and I felt it was overgraded). However, I feel that this coin's strike limits it to MS65.

I personally think it is really cool and would love to have a coin like this in my collection. It is very unique. Is it currently on heritage?

 

Am I allowed to take the 5th.

 

Fair enough, I don't have any money to spend right now anyway...thank you school (plus, I wouldn't try and buy a coin out from another member anyway).

I'm actually more interested in watching it.

 

Very interesting coin! Thanks for sharing...

A few points.

First off, I don't necessarily buy this was a new die or trial piece. While I must give Heritage the benefit of the doubt, having seen the coin in-hand, I'm skeptical. In my experience, most early die strikes on Peace dollars aren't super-lustrous -- it takes time for the dies to get worked in before the booming luster coins come out. Furthermore, a coin as weakly struck as this one appears to be (if that's what it is) shouldn't be lustrous because they never hit the die itself to cause the luster. My sense is the coin in question is a very late die state and as a result the die has lost much of the detail but the coin is fully struck (and why the luster is unbroken in the areas that lack detail). All that said, if the planchet were a special one (as Heritage suggests) and already lustrous, then perhaps the story makes a bit more sense.... I'd love to see the coin in hand though!!!!

I think many people forget that in the top-pop grades, NGC ranks coins it doesn't grade them. What NGC is saying, essentially, is if you lay this coin next to all the other 66's, it clearly stands out as better. IMO, it is very important to realize that this is how NGC grades.

To answer the original question, no, I don't think that a single characteristic can be ignored -- they all should be factored into grading. However, to explain the coin in question, I will suggest that other characteristics can be so great (luster) that weakeness (strike) can sometimes be overlooked.

All IMHO & respectfully submitted...MIke

 

I also find it interesting that an early die state would have such pronounced die cracks. I find Heritage's explanation rather difficult to believe. However, I find both coins uniquely attractive. Normally weak strikes detract from eye appeal, but with regards to these coins, the weak strike is inexplicably appealing IMO.

 

This is what I was coming to say lol. These die cracks are what I believe Lehigh96 was talking about on his coin.

I have a feeling that this isn't so much a weak strike as that the coin was struck 2x and therefore has MD (damage?) I've seen it alot on cents lately, it gives that mushy look on old copper though I have no idea how it effects silver. Perhaps they just regreased the die?

Look at the upper rim on the obverse and tell me it still deserves a 67. I know I'm still new (knowledge wise) but I think this is relevant.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. Luster is caused by die flow lines in the die that develop after the die has been in use for a while. (Flowing metal when coins are struck slowly erode the surface of the die creating die flow lines.) A new die will have smooth field surfaces and is much more likely to produce a Proof-like coin than one with tremendous luster.

I cannot agree with this. Being struck twice and having mechanical damage are two entirely different animals.

If this coin were struck twice (as Proof coins are) it would not be so weakly struck (unless something extraordinary was going on, e.g., improper die setting or improper pressure).

Mechanical damage occurs when a coin is struck and the die chatters immediately after striking the coin. MD generally shears off a portion of the just-struck coin and leaves a shelf where the metal was sheared off. I do not see any shelves or any other evidence of MD.

 

I said I could be wrong, however if you blow up the picture, you will see that it was struck twice and that it was struck unevenly. It could have been an accident just as I described on the lincoln cents.

 

This was what I started looking for for machine doubling on lincoln cents. If a misaligned die can cause the doubling as in the other coins I've seen that exhibit this, then I don't mind getting my learn on.

Lehigh96- is your coin this weak, and if so are the rims the same/similar.

 

If you don't include all the detail of the coin.
It not graded.

 

Sometimes, photographers will intentionally shoot slightly out-of-focus. It gives a soft, sultry kind of feel which can be very appealing.

Same here.

 

I skipped to the end of the thread. I did not read everything, so here on a limb I find myself again.

I would not pay 65 money for that coin. Weak strike and spots does not a gem make. Luster be damned, this is where I put the eye appeal factor in place.

The coin lacks eye appeal.

 

Wow, that shows how much subjectivity there is with regards to eye appeal. I bid 2X MS64 wholesale on this coin. The large mark in the hair is the most problematic issue I have with the coin. That combined with the super weak strike keep it from an MS65 IMO. However, I do really like it and know that it will sell for above MS64 money. Wish me luck.

 

With so many well struck '24 Peace dollars I think the weakness should limit it to a 64 and definately no higher than a 65 .
rzage

 

Exactly. Coins that are as common as dirt, you are better off waiting for the next one. There will be more. If paying primo money, wait for a primo coin. They DO exist.

Example, a generic 64 SVDB. Sure " it's a nice coin ( minus that " issue" )" , a real looker.......BUT, if you hold out another show or another auction, for just a small percentage more, you might latch onto a real primo.........there wont be much diff in price.


Face it, the liners have almost always been resubmitted a few times, so the days of picking crossers are getting thin.

Now, if a coin grabs you? Buy it.

I dont always follow my advise either, I overpaid for a doggy SVDB last week at Heritage, an accident that will be sold for a loss to regenerate cashflow, but, it is part of the tuition process. I also ripped a primo for under bid, so I'll average them.........

 

I skimmed the topic as well. I assume we're talking about the ICG MS65 coin? Seeing as you usually go by numismedia wholesale and this guy is in an ICG holder, $96 ought to buy that coin, but it's clean enough that $130 wouldn't shock me. Still, I think the holder holds it back.

I think the coin has really nice luster and it looks "fresh" which I personally like, but you know how you get all stoked over toning? I get like that with strikes. This is why I made the genius move to collect SLQs.. ain't I be smart?

Still, I'm torn over this coin. From what little I know of Peace Dollars, it's an exceptionally clean piece, but the strike is weak. See, it doesn't have that usual Peace Dollar toning that I detest which is nice, but the devil on my shoulder is saying two things..

1) A 1924-P Peace Dollar is about as rare as a lying politician.

2) In digging through Heritage's archives, you can get an MS65 for cheap money too, it's the 66s that are a tad spendy and the 67s bring $insane. Still, under $100 might be low.

3) If this comes back from NGC or PCGS in a 64 Holder you are the proud owner of a $50 coin.

This one I liked, $138, PCGS Slab, much better strike.

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=68101&Lot_No=63174

May the force be with you!

 

Glad to see somebody is catching on. You ask me, they're all like realtors. ReMax and Century 21 and the like appraise real estate based on a vast database of comparables, the MLS, and NGC and PCGS and the like appraise coins based on a vast database of comparables, their stored archives and actual auction sales. Their utility is, they know their market conditions. But these are, ahem, "grades," only because the ANA, itself, succumbed to the market pressure, legitimizing their "market grading" scheme. Again, just my two bits...