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Message:: [QUOTE="Insider, post: 8333458, member: 24314"]Insider, posted this: Authenticity is an absolute fact. So there can only be three choices.  They are: 1. Genuine.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie50" alt=":happy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> 2. Not Genuine.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie50" alt=":happy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />    a. Counterfeit.    b. Altered genuine coin. 3. No opinion.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie50" alt=":happy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />   a. Opinion divided.    b. Unable to tell due to coin's condition.    c. We don't want to risk an opinion. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />  IdesOfMarch01, replied: "Let's start by defining "authenticity" in the context of ancient coins."  [If anyone reading this thread does not know what "authenticity" means - including all coins, tokens, metals, paper money, purses, stamps, jewels, and yes, even ANCIENTS, they <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie30" alt=":bucktooth:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> probably should not be posting <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie66" alt=":muted:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> in the thread.  However, you <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie26" alt=":bookworm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie33" alt=":cigar:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> have done something very necessary that I <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie45" alt=":eggface:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie46" alt=":facepalm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie25" alt=":blackeye:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> or someone else should have done at the beginning - DEFINE THE TOPIC. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie10" alt=":oops:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie87" alt=":sorry:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />]  I would propose the following criteria for an ancient coin to be judged "authentic:" [I think everyone, including me can agree with what you wrote below.  Unfortunately, in my rush to leave the thread yesterday, I used the word "fact" to emphasize that there is ONLY ONE ACTUAL "TRUTH" about a coin's authenticity.  Humans, living at a later time, TRY THEIR BEST to determine that "truth" often with mixed or incorrect conclusions.<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />] 1. The coin was struck during the time period it was purported to be struck (this excludes modern forgeries struck or cast with ancient flans). 2. The coin was struck by an official mint or moneyer acting within its purview.  (This excludes ancient forgeries struck unofficially and also excludes ancient fourees). 3. The coin is of the type that it is purported to be; i.e., it isn't an ancient flan that was re-engraved to be a different type from its original strike. Using this definition, I would argue that all purportedly ancient coins are, in an absolute sense, either authentic or not authentic.  Note that this is not logically the same as asserting that authenticity is an absolute fact. [100% AUTHENTICITY  IS A "FACT."  Humans, may not be able to determine it at some point in time. "Expert" opinions have been known to change both ways.] "I would next argue that it is impossible to prove, on an absolute basis, whether or not a purportedly ancient coin is authentic, so its authenticity really is judged on a continuum of opinions and judgments over a period of time."  [I consider this to be your personal "fluff" used to cloud the subject of authenticity.  We don't need to "prove" the sun is in the sky.  That's why we can say in the business: "Some coins are self-authenticating."  I'll bet you and other CT members own a bunch of them! <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie85" alt=":smuggrin:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />] "Finally, I will reassert an opinion that I wrote previously on this site that it makes no financial sense for a TPG to insure a coin for its purchase value, since the TPG didn't sell the coin originally.  The dealer who sold the coin has some recourse in the event the coin is proved a forgery, since he/she can go back to the original seller for reimbursement.  TPGs don't have this recourse and coupled with the limited and unique nature of ancient coins (as opposed to the commodity nature of modern graded coins), it would be difficult at best to provide full purchase-price insurance." And finally, I can get to the subject of this thread: If TPGs guaranteed authenticity for ancients would you use them? Unfortunately, <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> that will need to wait.  My mother comes first.  Happy Mothers' Day! PS  Gam3rBlake, asked if super expensive coins have been slabbed and later determined to be fake?  Without throwing stones because no person or TPGS is perfect - unfortunately, yes. Expensive coins and in one case a group of super expensive coins. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie66" alt=":muted:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]

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