If TPGs guaranteed authenticity for ancients would you use them?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Gam3rBlake, May 6, 2022.

  1. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    I’ve been around the forums long enough to know that the majority of ancient coin collectors do NOT like to slab their ancient coins and consider encasing ancient coins in a plastic slab to be almost sacrilege..

    But I also know that the main argument (aside from wanting to hold the coins) against TPGs is that they don’t guarantee authenticity. The TPGs only guarantee the grade.

    I’m wondering if NGC also guaranteed authenticity would more people slab their ancients?

    To be clear when I say “guarantee authenticity” what I mean is that if an ancient coin in one of their legit slabs one day is proven to be fake the TPG will reimburse the owner of the coin the full market value.

    Just like if PCGS slabbed a counterfeit Morgan Dollar. They’d reimburse the buyer.

    I’ve always thought NGC should just make the same guarantee on ancient as US coins. I know the reason they don’t do it is because it’s impossible to 100% guarantee ancient coins but I haven’t heard of any NGC slabbed coins turning out to be fakes and even if a few have been that’s still like 99.99% success rate in determining authenticity.

    Even if they are wrong very rarely and a fake does get slabbed they would more than cover the cost from the increased revenue from more submissions due to the guarantee.

    Idk what do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
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  3. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Interesting premise...I look forward to the replies
     
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  4. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Imagine what they'd charge to guarantee the authenticity of, say, an Eid Mar aureus! Not quite what an insurer would charge to cover the risk of jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. But pretty close.
     
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  5. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    But I’m sure an Eid Mar aureus they’d spent lots of time looking at every single thing about it.

    I mean it’s true they could mess up but that’s exactly why the fees would be so high.

    How many expensive coins like that are in NGC holders now? Quite a few.

    But how often do we hear of them being later found to be fakes? I’ve never heard of it.

    Have you ever heard of a super expensive coin like this being slabbed and later determined fake?
    C928F824-90AA-4DA7-9BD2-168020553F33.jpeg


    If it happened even 1% of the time we would have heard about it and it would be used as a great argument against slabbing coins so I imagine most people have never heard of it happening.

    Now that does not mean it never happens but it does mean it’s extremely extremely rare in which case even coins like the Eid Mar aureus and other million dollar ancients could be safely authenticated with plenty of money to cover those very very rare mistakes.

    Or better yet! Allow people the option of paying extra for an “authentication” service. That extra money would allow them to put aside a significant sum to cover any mistakes.

    Then the label could have “Authenticated” on it underneath the grade to show if that service has been paid for.
     
  6. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Supporter! Supporter

    It's not necessary and not worth the risk for NGC. Any dealer worth their weight in salt will already be guaranteeing authenticity. NGC provides a very valuable service and they certainly won't slab anything they question.

    Authenticity is a continuum, not an absolute fact, and uncovering that an entire type is fake could bankrupt a firm. There are enough dealers to absorb it across the market but it would be unwise/unsafe as the only grading company in town.

    They couldn't realistically charge enough more to cover the risk without dramatically increasing prices everywhere.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
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  7. Mr.MonkeySwag96

    Mr.MonkeySwag96 Well-Known Member

    Another criticism against NGC is that they don’t properly attribute their ancient coins. As we all know, most Roman coin types are attributed using standard reference guides such as RIC, RPC, RSC, Sear, and Crawford.

    For example, NGC would “attribute” a coin as a “Trajan, AR denarius.” Well duh, that particular coin is a Trajan denarius. But what type of denarius is it? Trajan issued hundreds of different types of denarii. Certain reverse types such as ones depicting Trajan’s Column generally sell for more money than “generic” goddess types such as Salus or Fortuna. However, NGC doesn’t distinguish a Trajan’s Column type from a Fortuna type despite the differences in rarity and value.

    So NGC can identify the VAM varieties of Morgan dollars but they can’t attribute the RIC types of Roman coins?

    Much of the information on NGC slab labels aren’t useful in educating new collectors about their ancient coin.

    Keep in mind, the paper tags of dealers are around the same size as an NGC label. A dealer’s paper tag lists relevant information such as a Roman coin’s weight, diameter, die axis, grade, and RIC catalog #.

    I don’t get why people would pay a premium to get NGC to “attribute” their ancient coins when reputable, knowledgeable dealers do a much better job at attributing coins.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  8. DCCR

    DCCR Member

    The dealers I use already guarantee authenticity with a lifetime money back guarantee. TPGs would offer nothing on top of that but they would add cost, make the coin harder to examine, make it harder to photograph, and take up more storage space.
     
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  9. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Here comes another 10 page post. :D

    As for me, no I wouldn't use them. It's just too expensive to have them "slabbed" as is & I like to hold and touch the coins. I think that's one of the reasons I got into them more. Too many rules with U.S. coins.

    Another thing I wouldn't like slabbed coins, is they are already priced much higher then a raw examples. Looking out for the best deals I can find, and many here know I have gotten some good ones, it would give me pause. If ancients started to become how U.S. coins are with slabs, I would probably move along tp autographs as my 100% interest and take a break or quit ancients all together.

    I am sorry, but I really don't like slabs of any sort. That's with Coins, Comic Books, Autographs and now stupid things like Video Games and VHS Tapes. Soon, I am sure DVDs and SD Cards will be next.
     
  10. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    ...

    Edited. Yeah, Mat's right. Why go there. It's all been said before.
     
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  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    We're apparently slabbing dime-a-dozen Gallienus ants with illegible reverse legends now.

    Capture 1.JPG Capture 2.JPG
     
  12. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Supporter! Supporter

    No I wouldn't either.
    What @Mat said, minus the autographs stuff

    Q
     
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  13. Tall Paul

    Tall Paul Supporter! Supporter

    What happens when a TPG and a renowned expert disagree on authenticity? I had this experience with NGC and a coin certified by David Sear. I felt Mr. Sear's argument in favor of authenticity was genuine and made more sense. And, at least he was willing to reevaluate and reexamine the coin. NGC could have cared less.
     
  14. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    However, NGC doesn’t distinguish a Trajan’s Column type from a Fortuna type despite the differences in rarity and value.”

    yes we do.

    “So NGC can identify the VAM varieties of Morgan dollars but they can’t attribute the RIC types of Roman coins?”

    there’s an $18 upcharge for variety identification on US coins.

    I’m wondering if NGC also guaranteed authenticity would more people slab their ancients?”

    It would definitely increase the number of fakes that get submitted with the hope that one gets through.

    And, at least he was willing to reevaluate and reexamine the coin. NGC could have cared less.”

    any desire to elaborate? We re-examine coins all the time. 95% of the coins that get returned as not genuine, I can demonstrably prove are forgeries.


    Barry Murphy
     
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  15. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    AncientJoe, posted: "It's not necessary and not worth the risk for NGC. Any dealer worth their weight in salt will already be guaranteeing authenticity. NGC provides a very valuable service and they certainly won't slab anything they question.

    Authenticity is a continuum, not an absolute fact, and uncovering that an entire type is fake could bankrupt a firm. There are enough dealers to absorb it across the market but it would be unwise/unsafe as the only grading company in town.

    They couldn't realistically charge enough more to cover the risk without dramatically increasing prices everywhere."

    This is going to be a interesting thread. The NGC ancient authenticators may have a company muzzle that forbids them to comment. If not, one of them may join the discussion. Unfortunately, I have an appointment so for what it is worth, tonight I'll have some comments. Until then...

    Authenticity is an absolute fact.

    So there can only be three choices. They are:

    1. Genuine. :happy:

    2. Not Genuine. :happy:
    a. Counterfeit.
    b. Altered genuine coin.

    3. No opinion. :happy:

    a. Opinion divided.
    b. Unable to tell due to coin's condition.
    c. We don't want to risk an opinion. :(
     
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  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Good! Barry will have the answers for NCG ancients. I will probably add my two cents about the subject of TPGS authentication in general.
     
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  17. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    If TPG's did I would look very closely at the small fine print "could change at any time" is very popular in contracts today! Just a note. Very good question thanks.
     
  18. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Supporter! Supporter

    Let's start by defining "authenticity" in the context of ancient coins. I would propose the following criteria for an ancient coin to be judged "authentic:"

    1. The coin was struck during the time period it was purported to be struck (this excludes modern forgeries struck or cast with ancient flans).

    2. The coin was struck by an official mint or moneyer acting within its purview. (This excludes ancient forgeries struck unofficially and also excludes ancient fourees).

    3. The coin is of the type that it is purported to be; i.e., it isn't an ancient flan that was re-engraved to be a different type from its original strike.

    Using this definition, I would argue that all purportedly ancient coins are, in an absolute sense, either authentic or not authentic. Note that this is not logically the same as asserting that authenticity is an absolute fact.

    I would next argue that it is impossible to prove, on an absolute basis, whether or not a purportedly ancient coin is authentic, so its authenticity really is judged on a continuum of opinions and judgments over a period of time.

    Finally, I will reassert an opinion that I wrote previously on this site that it makes no financial sense for a TPG to insure a coin for its purchase value, since the TPG didn't sell the coin originally. The dealer who sold the coin has some recourse in the event the coin is proved a forgery, since he/she can go back to the original seller for reimbursement. TPGs don't have this recourse and coupled with the limited and unique nature of ancient coins (as opposed to the commodity nature of modern graded coins), it would be difficult at best to provide full purchase-price insurance.
     
  19. Tall Paul

    Tall Paul Supporter! Supporter

    Barry,

    Is there away to discuss this privately?

    Paul
     
  20. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Can we listen?
     
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  21. Mr.MonkeySwag96

    Mr.MonkeySwag96 Well-Known Member

    [QUOTE="there’s an $18 upcharge for variety identification on US coins [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I know there’s an upcharge to identify the Browning, Overton, VAM varieties of US coin types.

    My question is why doesn’t NGC Ancients offer a similar upcharge to attribute the RIC types of Roman coins?

    Also why doesn’t NGC identify the mints and officinae (workshops) of Roman coins?

    I don’t get why NGC Ancients requires an upcharge for basic information such as indicating the coin’s weight on the slab label. If anything requires an upcharge, it should be the identification of a Roman coin’s RIC or Crawford type.

    I think a basic level submission should at least include information regarding weight, diameter, and die orientation, with extra charges for RIC attribution as well as the mint and officina (workshop) that produced the coin.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
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