If the king says so...

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by okbustchaser, Jul 17, 2021.

  1. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    XF-40??? Yeah, right. This is one of the most undergraded PCGS coins I've seen in the series. Full mint luster absolutely glows out from under the toning. It's at least AU-50 if not higher.


    The 1817-105A nearly always comes with a mushy obverse due to the stress of using a broken die. (In fact, this example is actually much better than normal.) It should probably be graded chiefly by the reverse.

    By the same token, the grade on the holder got me the coin for about a third of what it would have cost if properly graded:happy:
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
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  3. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    Methinks XF45 because of the heavy wear.
    tibor and spirityoda like this.
  4. Matthew Kruse

    Matthew Kruse Young Numismatist

    Maybe try to get a CAC bean? ;)
    Mike Thorne likes this.
  5. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    Me thinks whatevs on the grade that PCGS assigned. Particularly so because the toning is spectacular, especially the reverse. I'd pay AU money for that "XF" coin all day long.
    Mike Thorne likes this.
  6. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    I agree with OP, and with @Matthew Kruse - I even think it might gold bean.
    Mike Thorne and Matthew Kruse like this.
  7. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Lovely coin. I'm a little surprised at a 40 grade since it's in a fairly new holder. I would expect a 45 with maybe a bump to 50 for the luster and attractive toning.

    I would expect the potential of a Gold CAC if submitted as is. The question is: Which would be of more value, a Green or Gold Bean on the current grade of 40, or an upgrade to 45 or 50? Probably the latter.
  8. Mac McDonald

    Mac McDonald Well-Known Member

    Indeed. I have an 1819 that graded AU50/PCGS about 12 years ago with nearly identical toning/colors, luster and wear. Of course, 12 years is 12 years...heck, 1 day is 1 day with grading...you could try a regrade or crossover to NGC and see what happens before doing anything else if you think it's worth it.
  9. Vertigo

    Vertigo Did someone say bust?

    If CAC doesn't like the strike it doesn't matter if it's au50 in an xf40 holder. The weak obverse alone could condemn it. But with that truview and that look that coin is fabulous no matter what. Especially if you got a discount on it.
    Also, I like your king reference. I always think to myself I'll send these to God for judgement.
  10. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I think, based on the heavy wear that it is an XF coin. It is a very attractive XF coin, but in my opinion, too much wear for AU. I would send it to CAC for the bean, for being high in grade, and eye appeal. It might get a gold bean.
  11. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    That's just it...there IS no "heavy wear". It came out of the press with those unstruck areas. The broken die just couldn't supply enough pressure to fully strike the coin.

    Here's an example that shows the "normal" obverse for this die marriage. Compare the VG to F obverse to the VF reverse. Once again, this die marriage needs to be graded based on the reverse rather than the usual obverse.
    Beefer518 likes this.
  12. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Beg to differ, but I have circled the areas that I see circulation wear. Yes, the strike is mushy. However, I have done my usual “red circle” thing in the areas that I see wear at the high points of the coin. Based on those areas, and there are far more on the obverse, I agree with PCGS’ grade. Perhaps, it was slightly harsh; the coin could have graded as an XF 45 tops. I never said that it was not a beautiful coin—it is. However, I just do not see it as AU, based on the areas of obvious wear that I circled. Does it have eye appeal? Absolutely. But, sorry to say, I agree with an XF grade. It is high in grade, but accurately graded as XF.

    D9B1C465-7979-4EF0-858A-9DBDDB49E937.jpeg 04268A23-5291-4EDC-B345-AE5A3B376C16.jpeg
  13. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    There is a little wear but with that toning and everything else it should grade mid AU from the photos. A beautiful coin.
  14. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I agree and would personally grade it AU50. I think the mix of weak strike and wear on the obv can be misleading. Looking at typical high points such as Liberty’s curls below LIB and the eagle’s talons, the coin clearly has AU details. I’d cross it over to the “second best” TPG asap :-D
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  15. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Bustchaser, the question for me is how much field luster is there? On bust halves you often have luster all around the stars and letters even down to VF, but on AU there should really be some in those open areas, which typically don't show up well in photos of toned coins (which I continually undergrade on GTG threads!). You have the coin, what do you see?
  16. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    The toning causes the wear on the high points to be rather well-delineated. I'd say 45 as a first impression because of that. Without the contrast, an AU50 grade may become more likely.
  17. Jon Brand

    Jon Brand Well-Known Member

  18. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    It is AU50. PCGS fails this variety every single time, along with the 1814 E/A Overton 108 and 108a. I frequently see those XF coins in VF holders. And btw, in my experience CAC typically only green stickers them. John Albanese and company do not give out gold stickers like candy.
  19. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The obverse counts more than the reverse when it comes to consigning a grade. In this case, the obverse has an EF look to it.

    While the toning is pretty, I think that it is secondary toning that formed after a dip. An AU-50 might be in this coin's future, but don't be surprised if you don't get any more than EF-45.
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  20. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Ok, being completely objective. It is a beautiful coin. I would have bought it, for sure. But compare it to the PCGS Photograde pictures. They got it right, as an XF coin.

    C245634D-38E5-4F7E-A5AF-CE849BF74F5A.jpeg 7D0C5CF6-8F56-455B-AE5C-D89F4683A48E.jpeg
  21. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    You cannot compare other dates and varieties to the OP coin IMO. It is struck differently. These were all minted on a screw press.
    micbraun and charley like this.
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