If not "Proof Details - Scratched", then.... ?

I was just browsing on the 'Bay and I saw this coin for sale. If these scratches aren't sufficient to give the coin a Details grade, then what type of scratch is it that doesn't get a Details grade? Did NGC make a mistake? You can see the label at the bottom center of the pic, with a grade given as PF 61. Shouldn't it be given a Scratched, Hairline Scratches, or maybe even an Improperly Cleaned detail?

I always avoid coins that I see like this when buying raw, and I'll continue to do so. But, if NGC didn't make a mistake, then I'd like to know what caused these scratches "naturally" to deserve a non-Details grade.

Thanks in advance!

 

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Looks cleaned to me. I think they made a mistake.

 

Die scratches.

 

Notice how the scratches go under certain aspects of the coin rather then above. This tells me more then likely they are die scratches.

 

I agree.
Die polishing, not cleaned coin.
I don't see any of the scratches going over the devices.

 

If they were die polishing they wouldn't stop short of the devices; they'd reach the edge and indeed in many cases be heaviest right at the edge. Devices are negatives on the die, and there's nothing to stop a polishing tool.

Particularly on the reverse, you can see many places where some of the lines "skip" the devices, telling me those lines at least were post strike in origin. Some of the lines have the regularity of polishing - consistently parallel and relatively even - but many are haphazard.

NGC has held this coin in hand; we haven't. I'm guessing they decided it was a combination of polishing and poor handling which did not rise to the level of "damage."

 

It's a proof, some hairlines are to be expected - especially on a pf61.

 

So if at least some of those parallel series of lines were post-strike or post mint damage, then was it simply scratches that weren't severe in depth to warrant a hairlines detail?

I also clearly see scratches on the bust.

 

"Scratches" on the die, which these obviously are, do not contribute to a "details" grade. Photo's below are of three different coins.







Scratches on the coin do though.

 

No. The lines you see were on the die, not the coin. So, "pre-production" damage which does not warrant a details grade.

 

But I see parallel series scratches on the bust device.

Maybe it looks different on hand.

 

The devices on a proof die are not immune from scratching and the graders know the differences between die scratches and coin scratches.

 

Sure found a pocket.
May have been the shirt pocket but those are hair lines.

 

An additional possible factor might be the "typical" handling by the Mint in question, something NGC (for instance) knows that we might not. Could be that they've seen hairlined examples before, and are more tolerant of them than they might otherwise be.

 

You are all correct EXCEPT for the fact that NGC did not make a mistake. Hairlines and die polish on Proofs really stand out on a mirror surface. This coin has BOTH - hairlines from cleaning AND die polish.

Perhaps some here should read the ANA Grading Guide. Coins graded in the lowest PR/MS grades (60 & 61) may have continuous hairlining throughout!

 

Insider said: ↑
Perhaps some here should read the ANA Grading Guide. Coins graded in the lowest PR/MS grades (60 & 61) may have continuous hairlining throughout!

@GDJMSP said: This I agree with.


Insider said: You are all correct EXCEPT for the fact that NGC did not make a mistake. Hairlines and die polish on Proofs really stand out on a mirror surface. This coin has BOTH - hairlines from cleaning AND die polish.

@GDJMSP said: This I do not agree with. Yes, a coin can easily, and often does, have lines from die polishing and die scratches ( two distinctly different things by the way), and hairlines from rough handling, and hairlines from harsh cleaning - two more distinctly different things.

However, IF lines from harsh cleaning are present on the coin, then the coin is a no grade, no matter what. Or it is supposed to be anyway. And there was a time when it always was.

The problem is this - the TPGs have learned that when a coin does have lines on it that the collecting public, the market, will gladly and willing accept a clean grade on the coin - regardless of the cause of those lines. So many, a great many, coins that have been harshly cleaned, to at least some degree, are given clean grades. And the market eats it up like candy just because the TPG says it's OK

Insider said: I agree with Doug!
Unfortunately, we don't influence the grading standards of NGC, or the commercial coin market. The only thing we control is what we purchase, say, or post. IMO, the coin sucks! It is not for me; but the grade DOES CONFORM with the standard grading practices of today.

 

All day, brother. Tell it.

And all we can do is wake up every day intent on fighting the good fight to teach our fellow collectors how not to let someone else give them their opinions.

 

AMEN, AMEN, AaaaMend, AMEN, AMEN.