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I see these hole starts on these Gordian and his wife coins
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<p>[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24866616, member: 26430"]Jean Hourmouziadis has interesting data on centering marks on his website, though I'm not sure if it's ever been published (recording whether they're visible on the obverse, reverse, both). Quantified in interesting ways, though.</p><blockquote><p>For various cities: <a href="http://www.hourmo.eu/60_Cililcia/Soloi-Pompeiopolis/Index_Soloi-Pompeiopolis.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.hourmo.eu/60_Cililcia/Soloi-Pompeiopolis/Index_Soloi-Pompeiopolis.html" rel="nofollow">Cilicia, Soloi</a> ; <a href="http://www.hourmo.eu/62_Phrygia/Prymnessus/Index_Prymnessus.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.hourmo.eu/62_Phrygia/Prymnessus/Index_Prymnessus.html" rel="nofollow">Phrygia, Prymnessus</a> ; <a href="http://www.hourmo.eu/68_Lycaonia/Derbe/Index_Derbe.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.hourmo.eu/68_Lycaonia/Derbe/Index_Derbe.html" rel="nofollow">Lycaonia, Derbe</a> (just results, not coin photos) ; many others <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&sca_esv=594304749&sxsrf=AM9HkKnQFoIV1MhLMZBMB1iZrg2mdnA4EQ%3A1703801131911&ei=K_GNZaybN4rf0PEP1NaBuAs&ved=0ahUKEwjs3PDpkbODAxWKLzQIHVRrALcQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGyJjZW50ZXJpbmciIHNpdGU6aG91cm1vLmV1L0jgCFDtAVj8BnABeACQAQCYAYkBoAHfBaoBAzAuNrgBA8gBAPgBAcICCBAAGIAEGKIE4gMEGAEgQYgGAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.google.com/search?q=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&sca_esv=594304749&sxsrf=AM9HkKnQFoIV1MhLMZBMB1iZrg2mdnA4EQ%3A1703801131911&ei=K_GNZaybN4rf0PEP1NaBuAs&ved=0ahUKEwjs3PDpkbODAxWKLzQIHVRrALcQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGyJjZW50ZXJpbmciIHNpdGU6aG91cm1vLmV1L0jgCFDtAVj8BnABeACQAQCYAYkBoAHfBaoBAzAuNrgBA8gBAPgBAcICCBAAGIAEGKIE4gMEGAEgQYgGAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1" rel="nofollow">in these links</a>.</p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Here's a favorite of mine. Sometimes these ones from Thessalonica have a dimple-inside-a-dimple structure, and you can see the grooves from the rotation (although hard to focus enough to show in photos).</p><p><br /></p><p>There's a matching one behind the eye, but the high relief meant it was certain to be almost obliterated when the metal was forced into the die:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1595308[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Roman Provincial / Greek Imperial. Philip II (Caesar), under Philip I (Augustus). Macedon, Thessalonica AE Tetrassarion</b> (26.5mm, 11.23g, 7h), Second Pythian Games issue, struck circa 246 CE.</p><p><b>Obv</b>: · ΜΑΡ · ΙΟΥΛΙΟϹ · ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟϹ · ΚƐ (·) – <i>Mar(cus) Julius Philippus Ca(esar)</i>. Radiate, draped, and cuirassed bust of Philip II facing right, seen from rear.</p><p><b>Rev</b>: ΘƐϹϹΑΛΟΝΙΚƐΩΝ ΝƐΩ / ·ΠΥΘΙΑΔΙ· / ·Β· – <i>Of the Thessalonians, Neo(korate) / Pythian Games / #2</i>. Temple (of Kabeiros?) with four side columns, on podium, seen in 3/4 perspective to right.</p><p><b>Ref</b>: RPC VIII (Temp.) 69113, ex. 6 (<i><a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/type/69113" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/type/69113" rel="nofollow">this coin</a></i>); Touratsoglou (Thessaloniki, 1988) 62 (Philip II); Varbanov (vol III, 2007) 4740; Moushmov –.</p><p><b>See also</b>: Jean Hourmouziadis “Virtual Collection” SHH v3964 (<i><a href="http://hourmo.eu/32_Macedonia/Thessalonika/Index_Thessalonika.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://hourmo.eu/32_Macedonia/Thessalonika/Index_Thessalonika.html" rel="nofollow">this coin</a></i>).</p><p><b>Provenance</b>: Ex-Dix, Noonan, Webb A7 (17 Mar 2009), Lot 1235; Pegasi MBS 22 (20 Apr 2010), Lot 383 (unsold, and numerous later Pegasi/VAuctions sales through 2020); CNG e-Auction 489 (7 Apr 2021), <a href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7963587" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7963587" rel="nofollow">Lot 272</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>A lot of my Bithynian and Moesian Provincials have them. Here are a few from the Lindgren Collection that show dimples on both sides:</p><p><br /></p><p><i>[expandable thumbnails]</i></p><p>[ATTACH]1595309[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]1595310[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]1595311[/ATTACH]</p><p>These coins = <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/411122" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/411122" rel="nofollow">RPC VI, 1225/1</a> (Moesia, Nicopolis) = HHJ 8.26.34.2 ; <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/413347" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/413347" rel="nofollow">RPC VI, 2385/4</a> (Nicaea) = Lindgren 145 ; <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/143014" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/143014" rel="nofollow">RPC VIII, 846/5</a> (Nicomedia) = Lindgren 177</p><p><br /></p><p>Another nice pair from Moesia, Nicopolis:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1595312[/ATTACH]</p><p>This coin = Varbanov 2258, ex Fischer, Kluger</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>I don't think the Roman Imperials tend to have them do they?</p><p><br /></p><p>I would be interested to see examples from the Rome mint, if known. (I've seen them on 1st century "Imperial" -- Provincials with Latin legends -- from the Thrace mints.)</p><p><br /></p><p>They're generally seen on Ptolemaic & Seleukid coins, and Roman Provincial coins, especially Balkan mints (Thrace, Moesia, Macedon, etc.), some Asia Minor (e.g., Pamphylia) and Egypt, Alexandria.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>I don't think I've seen one on a Limes before.</p><p><br /></p><p>I don't think it's implausible, but I would want to consider other hypotheses for a few reasons:</p><p><br /></p><p>it's unusual to see one <i>that</i> off-center (since the purpose was probably to spin the flan on a lathe); especially since they're usually limited to larger flans (a certain size presumably required for spinning/lathing), but if they're known from denarius sized coins, I'd be interested to know;</p><p><br /></p><p>Also, if it is a centering dimple, that's strong evidence a coin is struck, rather than cast, as Limes are often assumed to be. I'm not certain how universal casting is thought to be for them.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24866616, member: 26430"]Jean Hourmouziadis has interesting data on centering marks on his website, though I'm not sure if it's ever been published (recording whether they're visible on the obverse, reverse, both). Quantified in interesting ways, though. [INDENT]For various cities: [URL='http://www.hourmo.eu/60_Cililcia/Soloi-Pompeiopolis/Index_Soloi-Pompeiopolis.html']Cilicia, Soloi[/URL] ; [URL='http://www.hourmo.eu/62_Phrygia/Prymnessus/Index_Prymnessus.html']Phrygia, Prymnessus[/URL] ; [URL='http://www.hourmo.eu/68_Lycaonia/Derbe/Index_Derbe.html']Lycaonia, Derbe[/URL] (just results, not coin photos) ; many others [URL='https://www.google.com/search?q=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&sca_esv=594304749&sxsrf=AM9HkKnQFoIV1MhLMZBMB1iZrg2mdnA4EQ%3A1703801131911&ei=K_GNZaybN4rf0PEP1NaBuAs&ved=0ahUKEwjs3PDpkbODAxWKLzQIHVRrALcQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=%22centering%22+site%3Ahourmo.eu%2F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGyJjZW50ZXJpbmciIHNpdGU6aG91cm1vLmV1L0jgCFDtAVj8BnABeACQAQCYAYkBoAHfBaoBAzAuNrgBA8gBAPgBAcICCBAAGIAEGKIE4gMEGAEgQYgGAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1']in these links[/URL].[/INDENT] Here's a favorite of mine. Sometimes these ones from Thessalonica have a dimple-inside-a-dimple structure, and you can see the grooves from the rotation (although hard to focus enough to show in photos). There's a matching one behind the eye, but the high relief meant it was certain to be almost obliterated when the metal was forced into the die: [ATTACH=full]1595308[/ATTACH] [B]Roman Provincial / Greek Imperial. Philip II (Caesar), under Philip I (Augustus). Macedon, Thessalonica AE Tetrassarion[/B] (26.5mm, 11.23g, 7h), Second Pythian Games issue, struck circa 246 CE. [B]Obv[/B]: · ΜΑΡ · ΙΟΥΛΙΟϹ · ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟϹ · ΚƐ (·) – [I]Mar(cus) Julius Philippus Ca(esar)[/I]. Radiate, draped, and cuirassed bust of Philip II facing right, seen from rear. [B]Rev[/B]: ΘƐϹϹΑΛΟΝΙΚƐΩΝ ΝƐΩ / ·ΠΥΘΙΑΔΙ· / ·Β· – [I]Of the Thessalonians, Neo(korate) / Pythian Games / #2[/I]. Temple (of Kabeiros?) with four side columns, on podium, seen in 3/4 perspective to right. [B]Ref[/B]: RPC VIII (Temp.) 69113, ex. 6 ([I][URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/type/69113']this coin[/URL][/I]); Touratsoglou (Thessaloniki, 1988) 62 (Philip II); Varbanov (vol III, 2007) 4740; Moushmov –. [B]See also[/B]: Jean Hourmouziadis “Virtual Collection” SHH v3964 ([I][URL='http://hourmo.eu/32_Macedonia/Thessalonika/Index_Thessalonika.html']this coin[/URL][/I]). [B]Provenance[/B]: Ex-Dix, Noonan, Webb A7 (17 Mar 2009), Lot 1235; Pegasi MBS 22 (20 Apr 2010), Lot 383 (unsold, and numerous later Pegasi/VAuctions sales through 2020); CNG e-Auction 489 (7 Apr 2021), [URL='https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7963587']Lot 272[/URL] A lot of my Bithynian and Moesian Provincials have them. Here are a few from the Lindgren Collection that show dimples on both sides: [I][expandable thumbnails][/I] [ATTACH]1595309[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]1595310[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]1595311[/ATTACH] These coins = [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/411122']RPC VI, 1225/1[/URL] (Moesia, Nicopolis) = HHJ 8.26.34.2 ; [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/413347']RPC VI, 2385/4[/URL] (Nicaea) = Lindgren 145 ; [URL='https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coin/143014']RPC VIII, 846/5[/URL] (Nicomedia) = Lindgren 177 Another nice pair from Moesia, Nicopolis: [ATTACH=full]1595312[/ATTACH] This coin = Varbanov 2258, ex Fischer, Kluger I don't think the Roman Imperials tend to have them do they? I would be interested to see examples from the Rome mint, if known. (I've seen them on 1st century "Imperial" -- Provincials with Latin legends -- from the Thrace mints.) They're generally seen on Ptolemaic & Seleukid coins, and Roman Provincial coins, especially Balkan mints (Thrace, Moesia, Macedon, etc.), some Asia Minor (e.g., Pamphylia) and Egypt, Alexandria. I don't think I've seen one on a Limes before. I don't think it's implausible, but I would want to consider other hypotheses for a few reasons: it's unusual to see one [I]that[/I] off-center (since the purpose was probably to spin the flan on a lathe); especially since they're usually limited to larger flans (a certain size presumably required for spinning/lathing), but if they're known from denarius sized coins, I'd be interested to know; Also, if it is a centering dimple, that's strong evidence a coin is struck, rather than cast, as Limes are often assumed to be. I'm not certain how universal casting is thought to be for them.[/QUOTE]
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I see these hole starts on these Gordian and his wife coins
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