I got the Greek Corinth Stater with Pegasos and Athena w Helmut

I got this Greek (Corinth) Stater at the Westchester Coin show this weekend. It has Athena wearing the Corinthian helmet on one side and it has Pegasos on the other side. A dealer at the coin show referred to the Pegasos side as the obverse. I would have thought that the side with Athena would be called the obverse. (Of course, I also thought that Pegasos should be spelled Pegasus). I’m sure that you ancient collectors will straighten me out.

The Pegasos side appears to be struck by a worn die. The overall grade of the coin looks like EF but the Pegasos is inordinately weak in appearance. IMO, all the devices are well centered and well struck.

I’m told that this coin was lot #25 at a Christies auction in October 1983. Are there typically photographs used to depict coins like this in Christies' Catalogs? Perhaps someone could suggest how I could get a copy of the catalog page.

I hope that you ancient experts at CT can explain the significance of the dolphin above Athena and also explain what looks like a little Greek letter under Pegasos. The dealer that sold the coin says it is genuine & from 400 BC. If you guys can date it with more accuracy or provide any further information, it would certainly be appreciated.

 

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The dealer is correct that the pegasus side is the obverse. Obverse is simply the die in the anvil, and it can be proven the pegasus was. We are so used to the "heads" being the obverse, this coin is a classic example of that not always being the case.

 

Hello Medoraman,

Thanks for the quick reply. Can you suggest how I might learn more about the dolphin above & the (flower?) behind Athena?

Edit: Also, is that a Greek letter or just a raised lump under Pegasos?

 

Here is an example of a modern Greek coin with the obverse being counter-intuitive to those of us used to the "heads" being the obverse also. The "heads" in this case is the reverse.

 

I know one dealer in old coin catalogs. I have no idea if he would have the one you seek but I'm sure that he would be willing to look if he did and tell you if the coin was illustrated.

http://esty.ancients.info/catalogs/

He does not list it and comments on the poor quality of Christies' photos. You can always ask. Even if he does not have one for sale, he might have the information on whether your coin is photographed.

 

Btw not to be unkind, but that is not a EF ancient coin. VF is what I would grade it, and that is iffy considering the pegasus. Weakness is not excused, while its interesting to know why the design is weak, simply the fact the details are not there lowers the grade. Ancients have much stricter grading standards than US coins, and I would suggest you spend time at sites like CNG and look how they grade their coins.

Just trying to get you up to speed on our grading system, since it does affect purchase prices. A EF ancient is something a US collector would call AU or even BU60-63.

Chris

P.S. I do like your coin though. The pegasus is of unusual fine style. Between that and the porpoise on the reverse I could see why it would be plated in a catalog.

 

Where can I learn more about the porpoise above Athena (& flower?) behind Athena

Hello Medoraman,

Thanks for all the info. Where can I learn more about the porpoise above Athena (& flower?) behind Athena on this reverse?

FYI- Being new to ancient coin collecting, I evaluated at this coin like I would a USA 1922 no D cent. One side of the 1922 cent is struck with a defective die & the other side of the cent is struck with a non-defective die. The 1922 no D cent is graded almost exclusively by the non-defective side. The EF grade I gave this ancient was determined by the reverse side which was struck by the non-defective die. I understand from you now that it should be (1) graded more strictly & (2) weakness is not excused on ancients. Thank you.

 

Thank you dougsmit !
I have visited the Website & communicated my interest in Christie's October 1983 catalog.

 

For those not familiar with Greece, Corinth is a short distance SW of Athens on that lower Peloponnese peninsula of Greece. Today there is a canal that connects the Gulf of Corinth (on the west side of the peninsula) to the Aegean Sea (on the east side of the peninsula). I understand that this canal was under consideration more than 2,000 years ago but it finally came to fruition at the end of the 19th Century. Here is a photo I took last year of the Corinth Canal. The completion of this canal in 1893 changed the entire Peloponnese peninsula into an island.

 

I don't specialize in colts, and they can be a whole specialty in themselves. I know they have theri own specialty books. I can look tonight if my more general books discuss the two marks on the reverse. I know the number of symbols on these issues was quite large. Hopefully someone here has some of the better references on these for you, as all I would have would be BMC, SNG Copenhagen, and the like.

As for grading, if any ancient dealer tries to say "VF for type" or "EF weak strike", or any other excuse take it with a grain of salt. ALWAYS grade an ancient versus detail possible. The fact is many ancients left the mint as a VF coin. Some byzantines might have been more like a F fresh from the mint. While having WHY it is lower grade may be interesting, it does not change its grade.

Put it this way, in modern coinage perfection is expected since it is done on machines. Therefor, inperfect coins are highly collectible. In ancient, perfection is an absolute rarity, and we are striving for the best detail possible, and any deficiency is a negative to that. See why we are different? I laugh at every local coin show since invariably there is a guy with some ancient coin listing on the 2x2 "Ancient ERROR!!!!!". Dang, I have hundreds of Byzantine coins, and most of them are errors! The few non errors are the prize of my Byzantine collection.

Your reverse is a gVF I would say, but the reverse is a F due to its softness. I say overall a VF and am really giving it a bump due to style, which I said is very pleasing. I apologize when I give grades since most US collectors act offended at a VF, yet in ancients a VF is an excellent grade. Myself, most of my coins are f-vf, with just 10% of my collection being in the EF category, and I am not unusual. We simply grade much stricter than US collectors do.

 

Thanks for looking & special thanks for all the comments. Can you gentlemen tell me what the thing behind Athena's head is called? I called it a flower but perhaps you experts know a better name for this mark on the reverse?

 

Looks like palmette. Try this for an attribution:

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=177056

Edit: Also I apologize for not being more help Collect89, but I know these are a whole subset of collecting. like Alexander tets, and I just haven't got into them much. My standard references really just show examples, and don't go into the various markings on them and what they feel may be the significance of them. I knwo those books are out there, I just have never bought them since I do not collect these.

Chris

 

Dang, I was going to guess a spider.

 

Thanks Medoraman

Today I learned what a palmette is. According to Wikipedia, the palmette is a motif in decorative art which resembles the fan-shaped leaves of a palm tree.

I would say that the device on my coin is a palmette. However, my Athena is facing left and the sample on CNGCoins Website has Athena facing right, etc.

Thanks again.