I Don't Understand Satin

Alright, statequarterguy, I'll bite. I disagree with you slightly.. I do not consider satins their own variety. I do recognize they may have slightly more detail than business strike and have a nicer finish I cannot justify to myself to collect them as a separate entity. This comes to the fact that I'm probably novice enough or my eyes refuse to see the direct difference of a satin vs a business strike besides minute details of strike. Secondly, I'm in full recognition that my collecting habits are not that diligent...I'm too lazy. Let's take your beloved state quarters for example. If I wanted to collect every quarter by your sense in 2006, I would have 5 business P, 5 business D, 5 satin P, 5 satin D, 5 clad proof, 5 silver proof. That's 30 quarters for one year! Nah, that's too much work to sail on the boat, I'll gladly miss it-that is if there is a real distinctiveness for these satins.

 

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Your choice, but I'd have to say, whether or not you call the satins a variety, there is a significant difference between a satin and a business strike. With more experience collecting, you'll find examples of coins with less of a difference than satins, that command huge premiums. Although I collect all the "varieties", if I were to limit the ones I collect, I'd choose the satins over the business strikes, due to their much lower mintage and better quality.

 

I wouldn't consider it missing the boat since I choose not to collect the satin finish coins. The reason I choose not to collect them is because there is a disproportionately larger number of higher grades from the lower mintage figures. In my mind, that will not make them rare or even hard to find. As far as I'm concerned, collecting them is like collecting Modern PF70's. I'll continue collecting the business strikes which are very hard to find in the higher grades.

Chris

 

Now you're talking "grade rarity" and ignoring "mintage rarity", which IMO, is where collectors are caught up in high grade scams. You compare collecting satins to collecting modern PR70's, yet you like high grade business strikes. If you have to have a rare high grade, you can still collect 69 & 70 satins, as most are 68's and satins have the advantage of being overall low mintage. When the “grade rarity” bubble bursts, as many predict will happen, that leaves the old tried and true “mintage rarity”, that the hobby is founded on, which leaves the satins in a better position.

Got to get out and do something today, talk to you all later.

 

You GO GD!

 

High-grade Satins AREN'T any different from Modern PF70's in that they are so readily available that their values will not be supported over the long haul. Just look at what has happened with the PF70 SQ's, and that program only ended 2 years ago. People who fell into that trap will be the big losers. Go ahead and believe in your "mintage rarity" and when you decide to sell them, be sure to drop me a line letting me know how much you made on them.

You are also assuming that I am buying already graded business strikes in the marketplace which is incorrect. I never have! The only acquisition that even comes close is when I swapped one MS68 for another of a different date/mm. Other than that, all of my high-grade business strikes have come from searching bags and rolls, and I submitted them myself. Where is the scam in this method?

Chris

 

no scam, Chris, just a very good eye.

I think many times people see the coins sold on tv which are mostly hyped as condition rarities and associate the hype and hyperbole spouted my those hucksters with anyone who collects them. Just another place where salesmen give something a bad name by their over-zealous pitches and "walking the factual line" in order to make their products seem like a good buy.

I agree with Doug, these mintages are not low. I would also assert that in the past when something had a very low mintage that finding them in any condition was difficult and finding some in high grade was nearly impossible. Nearly the entire mintage of the satins is high grade and therefore not even scarce in a high grade and therefore (due to the mintages) quite common.

As with many things, some people just don't understand and they never really will. Condition rarity is the fact that a coin is difficult to find in that condition, NOT the fact that it is difficult to find one in a higher grade.

 

Satin finish coins (IMO) are ridiculous as a RARE collectable. why? well, first off, these are not business strikes, nor proofs. And so, if you collect proofs, fine, and look for the best one, but any modern proof holds zilch in an investment, or long term value. why? because they do not circulate, therefore , all are 100% pristine condition.
Now satin's, same thing as proof's, 100% in perfect condtion. So pay accordingly.]

Money is always in the business strike., Because they circulate, and finding a pristine example is harder/more rare...just my .02 , but collect what you like,. and no, mintage makes no difference...

 

But.....would it make any difference to you knowing that the circulating coins were struck from used SF dies? In other words, circulating coins are nothing more than water-down SF strikes from old SF dies......would that bother you? Others here already believe that they are so how do you feel about that?


Leo

 

yes grandpa if you had put this into everyone head instead of the virtues of toning both of us would have been happier today but if wishes were horses

 

I have been trying to make this point for years. People ignore the clad business strike coins and as such high grade pristine examples can be difficult to find. Beginning somewhere near the turn of this century, the US Mint started selling circulation strike rolls of coins like nickels and halves, Sac dollars, etc. IHMO anything after this time exists in pristine rolls by the truckload and much like the current satin finish coins will never garner much of a premium due to their availability.

The clad prior however present a very nice niche for people to put together collections for very little money. These coins are available and collectible! And ignored as they are, their number in high grade dwindles every day. There are a relatively small (and shrinking) number of Mint Sets. Few people saved these coins by the roll or bag. No one saved them for metal content. Most of them have merely done their job and circulated. If you'd like some indicator of this being true look at the 1982 and 1983 quarter dollars. They command quite a premium due to the lack of Mint Sets.

 

Not all business strikes are produced from worn satin finish dies. Business strikes released earlier in the year are produced from normal dies, and to be sure that you don't end up with bags or rolls of coins produced from worn SF dies, you have to order them as early as possible.

Chris

 

True, but most of the satins are under a million - 745k for the 2008's - less than the 1931-s mintage, most of which have been saved. Also looks like the 2009's will come in at less than the 31-s. Now, that comparison was for the cent - these sets have these low mintage coins for all the circulating series.

 

No scam, just a waste of time, unless you’re selling them now. With billions of business strikes out there, there are probably more high grade business strikes than the total satin mintage for any one year.

True, I don't believe any of the ridiculously high premiums for the super high grades for the business strikes, the satins or the proofs will be supported over the long run.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying satins have the potential of an 1804 dollar, just a potential somewhere south of a 31-s cent, which at current prices, would produce a huge percentage return.

I have to laugh at how many have been sold on grade rarity, as opposed to mintage rarity - a product of marketing. Now, if you can make something on grade rarity, great -but, I believe it's a short term opportunity. In the long run mintage rarity will be the winner because, as was mentioned, they'll be scarce in any grade.

 

You could be right, but I'd say there are a lot more high grade business strikes sitting in rolls and bags that no one cares to search for, much less pay to have them graded, so they're not part of the population reports - albiet that's changing due to short term profit opportunities.

I guess I'm just an old timer that's not willing to pay more than a nickel premium for a high grade, high mintage coin. I need mintage rarity to get excited. IMO, in the long run, when the high grade hype has run its course, mintage rarity will win out, as it has in the past.

 

Here are the Census figures from NGC for the 2005 States Quarters and the percentage of total submissions for those graded MS68-70.

2005-P CA Biz: MS68 - 13; MS69 - 3; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 443; 3.6%
2005-P CA SMS: MS68 - 298; MS69 - 295; MS70 - 1; Total submitted - 2807; 21.2%

2005-D CA Biz: MS68 - 14; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 261; 5.4%
2005-D CA SMS: MS68 - 260; MS69 - 248; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2504; 20.3%

2005-P MN Biz: MS68 - 0; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 336; 0.0%
2005-P MN SMS: MS68 - 221; MS69 - 627; MS70 - 3: Total submitted - 2923; 29.1%

2005-D MN Biz: MS68 - 16; MS69 - 1; MS70 - 0; Ttoal submitted - 149; 11.4%
2005-D MN SMS: MS68 - 276; MS69 - 485; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2723; 27.9%

2005-P OR Biz: MS68 - 0; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 237; 0.0%
2005-P OR SMS: MS68 - 252; MS69 - 668; MS70 - 1; Total submitted - 2971; 31.0%

2005-D OR Biz: MS68 - 12; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 114; 10.5%
2005-D OR SMS: MS68 - 260; MS69 - 499; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2720; 27.9%

2005-P KS Biz: MS68 - 0; MS69 - 0; MS70 -0; Total submitted - 300; 0.0%
2005-P KS SMS: MS68 - 208; MS69 - 168; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2540; 14.8%

2005-D KS Biz: MS68 - 3; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 207; 1.4%
2005-D KS SMS: MS68 - 279; MS69 - 363; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2631; 24.4%

2005-P WV Biz: MS68 - 0; MS69 - 0; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 254; 0.0%
2005-P WV SMS: MS68 - 270; MS69 - 354; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2809; 22.2%

2005-D WV Biz: MS68 - 6; MS69 - 2; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 113; 7.1%
2005-D WV SMS: MS68 - 267; MS69 - 152; MS70 - 0; Total submitted - 2417; 17.3%

There's no question about it! The satin finish coins will be true rarities in about 10,000 years.

Chris

 

Pop reports mean nothing. Few are even looking for high grade, high mintage business strikes, much less paying to have them graded - the TP'ers, just want you to believe the pop reports mean something.

As for the satins, yes, most of the low mintage satins grade sp68 - even so, I wouldn't pay a huge premium for an sp69 or sp70. Since the satins enjoy the advantage of mintage rarity, the sp68’s are the better value.

Just to make my point (again). Why do you think an AG 1916-d dime sells for so much? Clearly the grade is one of the lowest collectable grades. Oh yeah, it sells for that because of mintage rarity.