I can see why some ancient coin collectors dislike slabs

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by savitale, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    It's more than just the insurance of it being genuine (there are certainly fake coins even with early pedigrees). A lengthy pedigree makes the coin much more "portable" - salable to museums and free of cultural property concerns - and the ownership history adds another level of interest to the coin. There were some absolutely incredible collections built over the last centuries and if a coin is part of one of them, it's probably one of the nicest examples in existence.

    For this coin, for me, the pedigree adds probably $5K vs if it were unpedigreed. That's not to say that every Jameson coin immediately costs $5K but the coin itself is nice and the pedigree is meaningful, applying more of a multiplicative factor to the value.

    On other coins, it truly depends. Higher-tier pieces tend to have higher premiums for pedigrees. While it should technically apply uniformly, the price of Roman aurei today is not quite as influenced by pedigree whereas Greek coinage tends to have a sizable premium applied.
     
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  3. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    It's entirely logical that a knowledgeable retail dealer like CNG would acquire coins that they think are undervalued for their resale inventory. It's obvious in this case that the NGC rating didn't reflect the true value of the coin to an actual collector, rather than one who is primarily interested in the slab and secondarily interested in ancient coins. CNG recognized this and won the auction for a fair value that it believes allows them to sell it at retail for a profit.

    You have the finances of this transaction backwards. The advantage is in favor of the individual collector, who in theory is buying the coin for his/her collection and isn't trying to resell for a profit. In this case the individual collector can pay more than CNG since CNG needs to build a profit margin into its consideration and thus will stop bidding at a lower price than the individual. In addition, CNG added value by researching the coin's provenance which for many collectors increases the coin's value to them.

    While it may be a lot of work and effort, scouring auctions for undervalued coins is the best way for individual collectors to acquire ancient coins at bargain prices.
     
  4. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    That's a good question. For me, it depends on 2 factors.
    1. How much of an expert, were the previous owners of the coin?
    2. Can I look up the provenance, on the internet?
    The coin in your OP is way above my budget, for a single coin. Therefore, for that coin, I have no idea, what the provenance would be worth, to me.
    Most of my ancient coins have cost less than $100, with some coins in the $100 to $450 range.
    Therefore, almost all of the ancient coins, that I have purchased, have only had 1 "level" of provenance. By 1 "level" of provenance, I mean, that I bought the coins, from dealers or auction houses, which seemed to have some expertise or knowledge, about the particular types of ancient coins. Some persons, may not consider "level 1 provenance" to be provenance at all. But I do, in a way.
    Only 1 of my ancient coins, had a 2nd level of provenance. The seller mentioned, that the coin was formerly auctioned, at a CNB Triton XIV auction, and I was able to find that auction listing, with photos of the coin, on the internet. I researched the CNB Triton auctions, and I found out, that the CNB Triton auction house, seemed to be knowledgeable about ancient coins. I also believed, that the seller had a pretty good level of expertise, for that type of coin. That's 2 "levels" of provenance, to me : a knowledgeable seller, and a knowledgeable previous auction house. I paid $190 for the coin. If the coin didn't have the 2nd level of provenance, then probably I still would have paid $190 for the coin, because of the seller's expertise. Because of the 2nd level of provenance, I may have paid up to $250 for the coin. Therefore, perhaps, the 2nd level of provenance was worth $60 to me, for that coin.
    If an ancient coin doesn't have at least 1 level of provenance (knowledgeable seller or knowledgeable auction house), then I usually won't buy the coin at all, because I usually don't trust myself, to authenticate a coin, from seller photos. Therefore, the 1st level of provenance, is worth 100% of the price of the coin, to me.
     
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  5. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    P.S. : I also agree, with a lot of what @AncientJoe said, in his post #21 above. With all of the new US import restrictions and MOUs with various countries, old US provenance, especially if it can be viewed on the internet, becomes even more important for ancient coins. And provenance adds interesting history, to the history of the coin.
    So, for me, add 30% of the price of the coin, for old US provenance before 2010, which is viewable on the internet, for the purpose of US import restrictions and MOUs. And, for me, add up to 20% of the price of the coin, for old, interesting provenance, which is viewable on the internet, depending on how interesting the provenance is.
     
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  6. ab initio

    ab initio Well-Known Member

    This must be the understatement of the day!
     
  7. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    LOL! I guess I'm not very knowledgeable about auction houses. I've only been collecting ancients for 3 years, so I'm still a relative newbie, compared to many ancient CoinTalkers. Also, I'm sort of a bottom feeder, so I'm not so familiar, with some of the more prestigious auction houses. I'm glad to hear confirmation, that CNB Triton is knowledgeable about ancient coins.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
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  8. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    I am a provenance junkie and the provenance on this coin is important and impressive. CNG did a good job restoring the provenance and it's worthy of a significant premium IMO.

    As for omitting recent sales, that's common practice with dealers but I personally record every sale my coin has traveled. By the time I sell my collection, a 2009 or even 2021 will be notable.
     
  9. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    Wow. OK, that's a big number, something like 40% of the value of the coin in this case. Sounds like there's money to be made in researching pedigrees if you're into that sort of thing.
     
  10. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    Indeed! I've spent a fair amount of money buying catalogs myself, paying for experts to look for pedigrees, and using the Ex-Numis service (which charges 1% of the coin's value for coins over 25K if they find a pre-1970 pedigree... something which I've gladly paid a few times now).

    It's far more satisfying to find a pedigree yourself but that pesky clock has only 24 hours in it.
     
  11. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    Doh! I just realized, that "CNB Triton Auction" should be "CNG Triton Auction". I was relying on my old notes, in which I wrote down "CNB Triton Auction", for some reason. Where did I get "CNB" from? I don't know.
    Anyway, clearly, I didn't realize, that the Triton auctions, are CNG auctions.
    This year, I have become familiar, with the CNG Electronic auctions. In fact, I won a coin last March, in a CNG Electronic auction. And yes, I agree, that CNG seems to be knowledgeable, about ancient coins.
    I should have some trophy points taken away, for that mistake.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
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  12. Agricantus

    Agricantus Allium aflatunense

    I gladly pay extra for Dattari, Andrew McCabe, BCD. I like it when I know what the famous collectors where up (as opposed to "from the collection of a person"). Here are 2 Larissa ex BCD, pictures courtesy of CNB. I mean, CNG.

    A13B40E8-B863-49A1-901F-CBCB359794C3.jpeg 3C6B8099-DE57-42CB-92A9-268A354CC5C3.jpeg
     
  13. Fugio1

    Fugio1 Well-Known Member

    I've always thought that I had a competitive advantage over dealers because I don't intend to mark up the coins I buy at auction by 30%+ and expect to resell them in the course of a few months.
     
  14. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    For some reason the coin isn’t ringing a bell, but if the slab says edge filing you can bet someone has actually taken a file to the edge. It’s not just a scratch and not natural edge folds.

    Because the edge can be difficult to see, or even hidden by the prongs, edge problems are always mentioned on they label.

    the coin on the front and back is a 3 surface, so the edge issues were enough to lower the surface grade. It’s a 3 due to the horn silver, roughness right of the bee, and small cut on the reverse in the left field.

    concerning pedigree, it’s up to the submitter if we put the pedigree on the label. The fact that Heritage didn’t mention the important pedigrees isn’t a reason to dislike slabs. NGC had nothing to do with that. That’s on Heritage.

    concerning the price…. Is this the 4th finest known Ephesus tet? At it’s current price, only 3 have sold for more on Coin archives. CNG sold a significantly nicer coin in 2020 for $7200. Is the pedigree really worth $7000, more than the value of the coin itself?

    barry Murphy
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  15. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    Superb explanation! Thanks Barry!
     
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  16. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    Surprisingly, it appears that it is.
     
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  17. El Cazador

    El Cazador Well-Known Member

    I Thought the same thing!!@barry - thank you!
     
  18. El Cazador

    El Cazador Well-Known Member

    @Barry Murphy - thank you so much! This is perfect explanation!exactly my sentiment as well
     
  19. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I see this as a very, very good thing. Those of us who would remove a coin from a slab would be quite usset to find out that the slab made it impossible to see a serious problem. I might add that NGC seems hard on coins with minor scratches often mentioning them on the label but looking through plastic can make it harder to see those light marks so they are saving those who will crack from an unpleasant surprise.
    For the record, the protection of provenance requires that an illustration in the old catalog be of sufficient quality to be sure that the coin is the same and not a cast made from that coin. Dattari-Savio pencil rubbings and many old images made from plaster casts can identify a coin in hand as having been the 'sort of' same as the one in the catalog but I would stop short of relying on that 'insurance' considering the number of casts that could have been made assuming that the coins in these old books were good in the first place. Provenance is good evidence but not always as conclusive as one might hope.
    dattarisavio1018FC67-D531-4E8F-9FE4-13C41CA34F3B.JPG
     
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