I am on a mission to distinguish grading services.

Sorry for being off topic!

Airedale Hybrid - Russian Dog of War - 32" at shoulder 130 pounds. Invented by Russian Military circa 1950 - 5/8 Airedale, 1/8 Giant Schnauzer, 1/8 Newfoundland and 1/8 Rottweiler. The AKC registered breed is known as the Black Russian Terrier. The feet on this beautiful dog, may he rest in peace, are huge and webbed just like a Newfoundland . They extend out like a human foot. The Russians put a lot of work into this dog and that is why they used the breeds they did. The Airedale because of its Terrier characteristics ( lore has it in WW1, while used as messenger dogs, Airedales had an uncanny ability to dodge bullets.) The Giant Schnauzer because of its military background, the Newfoundland because of its natural instinct to save life and the Rottweiler so it would not be afraid of anyone or anything. Wolf's Nickolay Romanov, pictured here, the 16th BRT to enter the US, went on to his greater reward 5 years ago at 5 years old with spinal cord cancer. I had an Airedale before and have one now after him. In the Navy and Marine Corps they call people in the air wing Airedales. Go figure.
Sorry for being off topic!

 

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The ONLY way to properly evaluate and compare the different services is to send the same group of coins to EACH service MULTIPLE times That way each service gives their opiniion on the exact same coin. Any comparison of what company A says about this coin against what company B says about THAT coin is totally meaningless.

But if you could say

Coin 1
Comp A 62, 58, 64, NG, 63
Comp B 63, 63, 63, 63, 63
Comp C 63, 63, 62, 63, 62
Comp D 67, 67, 67, 67, 67
Comp E 63, 63, 64, 63, 62

Then you could START to be able to make some judgements.

Coin is most likely a 63
Comp A is very inconsistant and grades all over the map.
Comp B seems to be both consistant and accurate
Comp C Seems to be pretty consistant and accurate, possibly slightly conservative
Comp D is consistant but probably overgrades
Comp E is pretty consistant and accurate not overly liberal or conservative

And you do the same thing for a group of various coins. Classic and modern MS, Circ and Proof etc.

The more coins you use and the more times each service sees each coin the moe accurate your conclusions will be.

In order to keep the services from noticing that they are being tested you would not send the same coins in the same groups to each service (ither send them in small groups and swap the coins around between the groups each time you send them in. Or mix them in with other coins that are being submitted and not part of the testing.) Do not send them in using the same names and addresses.

I figured that at a minnimum, to have any accuracy it would take a group of 20 coins, submitted at least ten times to each of the services So if you wanted to compare the top seven companies You are talking some 1,400 submission. At $15 per coin and another $15 in shipping fees per submitted group (For max anon each 20 coin submission should be broken into two groups) Your total cost for the survey would be $23,100.

Now remember that is the MINNIMUM you would need for any kind of accuracy. And for each additional company you want to add to the comparison the price inceases by $3,300.

 

If that was the only cost then I think that it would have happened by now, but the really expensive part is the purchasing of the coins to be graded. Even a dealer with that kind of inventory can rarely afford to have 20 valuable coins stuck at the various grading services for a year or more!

I wonder if a government grant could be found to underwrite the survey if it were done in conjunction with an academic program of some sort? An interesting paper that would certainly be! I think I'd even enjoy writing it, which is something I don't say for very many subjects.

 

Different coin but the right idea.

 

So is that coin graded DCAM or UCAM....both are the same....
Because if it is I don't agree with the grade....DCAM is ment to be really heavy.....and you can see on the bell and lower part of Franklin's shirt that the CAMEO is very thin and you can see black right though a thin layer of CAM....this could could be graded CAMEO maybe since it is a harder date...

Maybe I'm wrong on this one and someone can help me out....but that is the way I see it.

Speedy

 

Check out the photo above....that I posted...see how the CAMEO is alot thicker?
That is the way it should be.

Speedy

 

Here is the description:
THIS IS ONE GORGEOUS HEAVY CAMEO EXAMPLE OF A 1952 FRANKLIN HALF DOLLAR! The mirrors on both sides are shimmering smooth deep jet black. The exceptional HEAVILY FROSTED DEVICES CREATE AN EXCELLENT CAMEO CONTRAST ON BOTH SIDES!! Very scarce as such on a 1952 Franklin.
WONDERFUL EYE APPEAL! Don’t pass up this opportunity. There is absolutely no haze or toning on this splendid pure white beauty. The surfaces are very clean.
The seller has 4500 positive feedbacks on eBay selling many coins in excess of $3000.00. He has been doing this for 7 years. Are you really 18 years old Speedy? I remember when I turned 18, I was in awe of how unenlightened I was at 17 and so happy that I knew everything at 18. Is this little picture any better?

Here is an excerpt of this sellers outlook and this writer believes the future will bear this out!
FOLKS, CAREFULLY CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING IF YOU ARE SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN THE REAL CREAM OF PROOFS:

The 2 major grading services are so wound up in discerning the ever so subtle minutia that separates a 66 from 67, a 67 from a 68, etc…that they very often miss the BIG PICTURE. As recently as the mid 1980's, we all bought coins based mostly on our own personal perception of the aesthetic “eye appeal” of a given mint state or proof coin. We were willing to pay more for the nicer, more eye appealing examples...and such examples were assigned "higher grades" by words such as "gem proof" which was nicer coin than a "choice proof", "superb gem proof" which was better than a "gem proof". Nobody…I mean nobody…was concerned about the tiniest hairline that only the very sharpest professional could find with his highly trained eagle eye. Today, the "registry folks" stomp on each other to buy a PCGS 69 coin at a truly ludicrous price…and not because the coin looks even the tiniest bit better than its 68 counterpart. Can they see the difference with their own eyes? 9 out of 10 registry collectors cannot see the difference!! They buy it ONLY because PCGS says its better on the grading tag!!!! And to add insult to injury, if you crack out 10 pre-1972 PCGS proof 69 coins and resubmit them to PCGS for grading, it is exceedingly likely that 5 or even more of them will get only a 68 on regrade!!!

It is true that PCI standards for numeric grade, cameo designation, and deep cameo designation are not quite as strict as those of the 2 major services. The fair value market prices reflect this quite well (in some cases too well, i.e.. undervalued). But be clear about this: PCI has not lost sight of the BIG PICTURE! Coins with clearly nicer eye appeal are generally awarded higher numerical grades. Coins with clear cameo contrast are awarded the designation without splitting hairs about it (the 2 major services try to split the tiniest hairs). Coins with exceptionally strong cameo contrast are acknowledged with the deep cameo designation again without trying to split hairs! For proofs there will never be enough cameos designated by the 2 major services to support full collections. There are a few dates/denominations that were simply not made with enough cameo frost to satisfy their excessively strict standards.

The moral of this story is simple. If you want to build a full collection of really beautiful cameo frosted proof coins don't hold out strictly for PCGS/NGC examples. Buy them in PCI holders, and/or raw and sprinkle a few PCGS/NGC examples into the collection if you want to and your finances allow it. Your collection will be affordable and tremendously rewarding!!!

Now for me! Would I pay $25,000.00 for a PCGS PR67 DC example or $325.00 for this coin. I think I would buy this one and use the $24,675.00 saved to buy other items!

 

I certainly appreciate what you are saying GDJMSP. I do not think he is saying the coins may all be equal . I do have to wonder how you can purchase a coin for less than 2% of the suggested retail that PCGS lists. How can you see a hairline in that low grade picture please? Where would they be? You realize we are not talking about a 70 grade coin here.

Here's an interesting blurb on the NGC site in an article about Statehood Quarters:

"the 70 grade comes down to any hairlines or spots being detected under 5X magnification. Should a hairline or spot be identified, this will cause the coin to grade no higher than 69. Mint caused defects, however, can be found on these proofs and still garner the grade of 70. As long as they are minor in nature, few in numbers, and easily determined to be mint caused, the grade of 70 can still apply. There are circumstances where a proof coin cannot grade 70 due to there being too many mint caused defects or mint defects that are too large in size. In these cases, the highest attainable grade will be 69. "

 

You can see in one look that the seller is trying his best to sell a coin that isn't worth it.
As I said above and I still hold to it that the coin isn't a DCAM....PCI overgraded this coin and that is no shock.

Feedback and how much coins cost doesn't mean that this coin is good...it doesn't even mean that he is a good seller....
Yes I am 18 and I'm sorry if I sounded like I though I knew everything....I don't....I'm far from it....but I'm just trying to share what I do know.

That is a understatment.

But you wouldn't be getting a PF67DCAM...you might get a PF65 and maybe not...
Franklins are my pick of any coin....the set is a hard one...in BU or proof....

Speedy

 

OK Moderators, I appreciate your point of view.

 

Now that 1950 is a really nice one....for Franklin Proofs dated 1950-1954 the coins are more of a satin BU look to them....not all have the Proof (Black and white) look....I don't know what grading Company graded this one but I woudld think it would grade PF66....that is without seeing the back....after seeing the back the grade may lower or even go up a point.

Is this a new coin you have gotten??

Speedy

 

Here is the reverse Speedy.

 

Too bad that the CAM on the front isn't good because if it was like the back it might have gotten CAMEO.
I'm thinking that the grade would be PF66/7.....
I don't know by the photos it if is graded by NGC or PCI....but if you have time to post the grade along with who grading it I would love to see how they graded it....
the early dates (1950-1954) are the hardest ones for me to grade....Proofs are always hard to grade IMHO but the early dates are hardest of all!

Speedy

 

Speedy this graded PF 65 Cameo by NGC - Here is the description
!!!! VERY RARE HEAVY CAMEO EXAMPLE OF A 1950 FRANKLIN HALF DOLLAR !!!!
If you follow my auctions, you probably have seen one where I talk about the fact that NGC is now grading every bit as tough as PCGS. They have especially tightened up on their cameo and deep cameo designations. This example is just back from NGC grading. THE CAMEO CONTRAST ON THE OBVERSE IS HEAVY. THE REVERSE SIDE CONTRAST IS SUPERB ULTRA HEAVY!!!! EYE APPEAL+++!!!

The surfaces are wonderfully pristine and defect free. The fields are silk smooth shimmering jet black beauties. The piece displays a fabulous sheen of glistening mint luster. Only under very strong light will you be able to find a couple of extremely light hairlines in the obverse field which NGC harshly judged enough to hold this coin back from a 66 grade. A super fine PQ cameo example of this issue!

 

WOW...I think NGC undergraded it by the grade but overgraded the CAMEO....as you can see the face clearly doesn't have good CAMEO--This is another show of how when a rare coin comes to the grading room they will tend to be alittle more lose.

That is true...but not in this case.

About eye appeal is right....but CAMEO I wouldn't agree....now I could be totaly wrong...(Hey GDJMSP...what do you think about this coin and the CAMEO?????)

True for the back but the front has what looks to be some light haze....but it could just be the photo.

I totaly agree...I bet that it could get the PF66 grade if sent in again.

Speedy

 

Here is a thread...
http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=12549
That is a DCAM coin totaly....the photo I showed only was DCAM on the front...this has DCAM on both sides.

Speedy