I Acquired a Counterfeit Certified by NGC

Informative post. Thanks all.

 

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Joea59, posted: :"This hobby has it's ups and downs and everything in between. If the TPGs can't catch the fakes that are sent to them where does that leave us? It's bad enough to have to worry about fake raw coins, fake coins in fake TPG slabs but to have to worry about having a fake coin in an authentic TPG slab is just plan wrong! TPGs should be our insurance of sort. And it seems now like there are some people who know they are buying fakes and actually want them! I mean WHY? Yea educational purpose and conversation piece but to look for and want a collection or set of known fakes just does not make sense to me. It's been said if you want to but something that's authentic buy certified or have it certified. Well that almost seems like it's out the window. This is just my view on it and everybody has his own views and wants but it's just frustrating and confusing.

It must be nice to be perfect?

halfcent1793, posted: "It's also overgraded by at least 20 points, though that's a minor issue in addition to the fact that it's fake"

Everyone knows that you copper guys have your own grading system that has NO RELATION at all to the rest of us dummies in the commercial coin market.

 

Even applying “normal” standards to this coin, it is still overgraded. Looks XF details to me. Lots of pre-1816 copper is overgraded by “normal” standards. I will never buy a half/large cent sight unseen, regardless of TPG.

 

I will never buy an early copper sight unseen, whether TPG or raw.

 

i agree with the sentiment, in general.

my opinion is that seeing the coin in hand is not an absolute defense against a counterfeit. counterfeit sales happen quite frequently, and it is not unusual for a numismatist/collector that is familiar with a series...eac, morgan, peace, shield, sl, etc.. to succumb to a well done counterfeit.

not all counterfeits are of chinese origin, either. the coin doctors and counterfeiters are alive and well.

when asked, i will tell the collector, never be to proud to ask the opinion of another collector/numismatist/dealer that you trust and that knows the series, before spending the money.

i used to attend a lot of mike dixon's shows, and help out. in my down time, i would browse the offerings. i would buy the counterfeit/doctored pieces as a learning and teaching tool and i kept 2-3 boxes at each show to share with whomever.

it was an off day show if i did not find 10-15 candidates. many were what the parlance of the hobby identifies as widgets. it amkes a person wonder: why go through the trouble? but then i remember what a coin doctor once told me in baltimore: practice, practice, practice.

we are human. we make mistakes. knowledge is power, and readily available. the problem is because we are human, we let ourselves get in our way.

i admit i enjoy doctored/counterfeit/altered pieces. i buy them when i see them, and always inform the seller why i am buying the piece.

 

TypeCoin971793, posted: "Even applying “normal” standards to this coin, it is still overgraded. [????] Looks XF details to me. [We must be posting about different coins. IMHO the OP's coin is exactly that - XF Details].

Additionally, it looks very nice for a 200+ year old coin that is CLOSER TO AN AU than to a VF. Perhaps that's why the NGC XF-45 grade. As for problem grades, a very strict grader COULD find a reason to "Detail" over 80% of the vintage copper pieces they examine. The commercial market does not tolerate such a strict evaluation.

BTW, Anyone who thinks it is over graded by 20 points must have been collecting for a very, very, very long time and missed the fact that the old standards we all used back then no longer apply.

 

charley,

Will you please post some of your collection for our enjoyment?

 

i wrote out a rather long rambling reply....and realized that somehow i had signed out. jeez, i am getting old.

i responded that in all these years, i have never learned to do so, mainly because it isn't important to me.

there are some members here that are familiar and have seen various displays i would set up at shows ( i always tried to vary from show to show ). some from the old days... mid- 2000s, i don't see here anymore. i have never stopped reading and daily peek-a-boo since i first joined in 2006, so i cold keep up in general with the hobby.

i was often asked courteously at shows by attendees/dealers if they could take photos, but i think it was more because of the custom cabinetry.

i will try to honor your request, and contact a collector/dealer geographically close to me for assistance i would not know where to start or what to post, but i promise to try.

now that i have retyped a reply, this one is better and not boring with some of the rambling i typed at first.

i do appreciate your asking. i really do.

 

for the rcord, i replied to this one also, and was not signed in. ridiculous. that is 2x. i am calling my doctor.
so, again:

yes. i agree. i can't bring myself to opine on a coin using market grading. i think the catalyst for market grading was birthed in 79-80, when the poop hit the fan. 20% interest rates didn't help. the inevitable happened...tpgs, and investment emphasis slowly changed the hobby. good or bad? not for me to decide. i just prefer the old ana standards, and that keeps me away from giving value opinions that are a daily moving target and i prefer not to mislead someone. i just try to give an honorable opinion of a coin, and let others talk $. if i absolutely have to give a $ opinion. i go to heritage sales history. i do not base my own opinions because of the holder, or the gray sheet, or any other reason except technical grade. it is what i liked about and still like about the early ana graded pieces, and to a certain degree, the ogh coins, especially in the sl series.