How to dip copper coins?

I'll try and explain this again for some of you. The "after" images are on the PCGS website. Now why in ?&(^$ would the "doctor", submitter, or even someone who "knows" the coins and what they looked like originally wish to PROVE TO someone as important as you that some people can "improve" a coin's eye appeal?

Do you recall the big fiasco about coin doctoring years age and the lawsuits? It is not quite the same yet That should be proof enough that altering the surface of coins has been going on in "modern times" for decades.

I want some one to PROVE TO ME that God exists or that UFO's are real or they can stop claiming things. Then when I realize it's not going to happen and I am an INSIGNIFICANT NOTHING in the big picture ...I'll get a grip on reality and stop asking for "proof." More and more the truth hurts as we have become a nation of whiners...get over it.

PS Just for you, I will ask the dealer if I can send you a PM with a PCGS image of his work. You will not believe it has been "done." Anyway, I promise to ask BUT I ALREADY KNOW his answer . I WILL ask.

Book recommendations for those who are interested and do not have them already: This weekend I was reading "Coin Chemistry" by White (again). Read it. Also in middle of : "Art and Science of Grading Coins" by Poe. Pretty good so far.

 

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Insider, you mean "philosophical" and not "philological" I believe. Whole different ballgame, there.

Steve

 

I do not need simple minded analogies trying to compare that looking for proof of God or UFOs is the same as simply asking for someone to show before and after images of a "restored" copper cent. AFTERALL THIS HAPPENS ALL OF THE TIME ACCORDING TO YOU.

If ALL OF THESE COINS have after photos on the PCGS website, where are the before images? Are you trying to claim that these coins were never imaged prior to cleaning, or if somehow the doctor went through the internet archives and scrubbed away all existence of the coin prior to restoration? Since I received no apology for your previous rude statement, I will revert back to initial statement; put up or shut up.

 

With experience: Just by looking at the COLOR of hundreds of graded coins; anyone who is not color blind can learn what is "market acceptable color." If you cannot get to a show or dealer, ask your friends to sell you there jars of cents and look at the colors of pre-1982 coins. For example, there is noting "original" about the color of the two Large cents in this post; however, they can be stripped back to "pink" and restored/made collectable in a short period of time.

It is taking every ounce of strength to keep me from sending a PM to their owner with some "tips" but not yet. While I like to be "spoon-fed" as it same lots of time; he is against it for good reason. As I have written before, the answer is in a book and one poster on CT has revealed one "old-timey" method that is similar.
That's enough clues...

 

Thanks, if you read my posts, I often don't have a clue what I mean. Can't spell either!

Note: Thanks to your editing, I was able to go back and correct this mistake that should have been a "black mark" on me for the ages; yet no one but me would have cared.

 

@serafino - You're right, that was fun! But it's probably not over yet.

 

A counterpoint: If you were someone who could - for instance - successfully turn a Brown copper back into a Red, would you want the TPG's knowing you could, and that they'd slabbed your work? No skin in the game for me, as I've never let any of my successful work back out into the wild and won't as long as we're letting the TPG's dictate what's "right," but that would be an extremely dangerous move for a traditional dealer.

 

I would agree with your statement, but surely, if this has been done successfully for decades, there are before and after images out there. This is a public forum whos contributors are for the most part anonymous. I don't think that posting an image would really be that much of a concern. Do you really believe that PCGS monitors every forum to take note of which submitters got away with something with them? If this is really a concern, block out the cert number and they couldn't trace it. Seems like unnecessary paranoia to me. I have an even better idea though, STOP MESSING WITH COINS PEOPLE!

 

First, we'll need to define "all the time" and the success rate/experience/qualifications of the dealer. Is it one in ten, one in twenty, one in a hundred...get the idea? The one in .... is different for all of us. His second to last submission went six out of ten. The four rejected were "done" again sent in with other coins and two more got slabbed. So far, he claims a $10,000 plus profit on a group of proofs he purchased. Only he knows if that is true. I don't care.

Nice try. The dealer has no camera, no time, and no reason to take before and after photos to prove anything to you or anyone else. You are free to believe in God, UFO's, my posts or anything else you wish as I don't care.

Now see, you go me posting rude faces after I promised others to be good and mature around here.

 

And the "coin doctors" that were caught and sued were "banned" from using the service and I heard that even SOME of the shills that were sending altered coins in to various TPGS (knowingly and not) were also banned.

 

Easy @Insider - Breeeeath, sloooowly breeeeath. We don't want to lose you again.

 

Perhaps this will help you understand my question better

 

Wow, You are a professional right? Can you remember any rainbow "monster" coins you have seen before? Active, big-time, "players", professional finalizers, auction bidders/catalogue writers, etc. can recognize many coins and even know their history. "Monster" rainbow PR-66 or 67 IHC demand attention just as any special coin or registry set example. Who needs numbers for ID's? TPGS's know who owns coins sent in. While the graders may not the info is available.

Furthermore, you are still forgetting my major point...NO ONE THAT MATTERS CARES WHAT YOU, I, OR ANYONE ELSE THINKS about this topic!

PS The web forums ARE MONOTORED on a regular basis. Just last week a post was removed on a grading service site because the moderators did not like the content of the question. I know personally several of the employees that watch us.

 

What do rainbow toned coins have anything to do with "restoring" copper? I was only asking for before and after images, that's it, nothing more and nothing less. Pretty simple, but like I said on page one, many claim it happens all of the time, but nobody will demonstrate it (or show an example). I have been a collector for thirty five of my forty years on this earth and have handled many of the most expensive coins on the planet. I am very well aware of what I'm talking about and can easily recognize when a coin has been doctored (even if it made it past the graders).

 

Goody for you! Now Please...We are ALL POSTING about COPPER COINS here. Is there anyone ELSE posting in this thread that has never seen a "rainbow" colored copper coin in their decades of handling many of the most expensive coins on the planet? If so, goggle rainbow toned coins. The Lincoln's are awesome! The IHC's are not the ones I am referring to which LOOK AS AWESOME as the pictured Lincoln's.

EDIT: No one I know would try to "rainbow" a circulated copper coin; yet they do occur in coin folders. As one poster said, Uncirculated coins work best.

PS Now we know that @Kirkuleez is forty [that's why the thin skin?] and works/catalogues for an auction company in NO. Bet many of us are jealous about your job.

Question for you: Have you ever listed a coin that YOU KNEW was "altered/doctored/not original" and did it anyway during your employment? No need to answer, I know you are above that.

 

@TJ1952

Has this discussion been helpful? Want more?

 

We were speaking of copper coins returned to mint red, but as usual, you read what you want to and respond rudely. Since I have never considered anything that you have posted to be valuable information and don't care to debate with someone who won't answer a question and considers me to be thin skinned, I'll do us both a favor. You are on my ignore list. Please feel free to fabricate any "facts" about me that you want. I no longer work for the company that I did because I found some of their practices unethical. I am (as I've told you before) a chemical engineer who develops systems for the oil and gas industry. You have chosen in the past to respond that I am a chemist and don't know my trade. If you don't know the difference, maybe you should Google it.

 

Sorry to hear that. We've discussed things before. Thought you were the coin guy not the chemist - which does not change any of my replies to you now or in the past.

I am referring to red-brown unsightly Proof IHC's returned to RED OR RED RAINBOW MONSTERS! That were upgraded 2-3 grades upon resubmission. That's what this is all about. RED.

Oh, and goodbye. I'll NOT be ignoring your posts .

 

Let's see if we can get back on track - we can use my example.

I bought raw coins online. Before I bought, I copied the images from eBay to photoshop, did my best to adjust the color balance, and thought the color looked natural. I made a modest (cheapo) bid and got a 1919, 1926, and 1927 cent.

I have crudely hacked the coin out of the larger eBay image to show the color.
Now my question is this. I already have a coin that is high grade, that I bought using all the due diligence I could muster, and a third-party thinks it is a bit off, and cleaned. It still retains cartwheel luster and does not show signs of stripping or damage.

(The selling dealer says he sold them exactly as he bought them, and did not believe them to be cleaned, so if anyone cleaned them it was the original collector. No one intended fraud or malice.)

Now we have a coin that is essentially out of the market.

If we could restore a bit of the authentic color using processes that match the original aging, why should we keep this from being a desired collectible again?

I do not want to clean any coins. I don't even want any cleaned coins, but a properly conserved coin would be fine. And recovering a coin that I already have would be even better.

 

Quote" "Now we have a coin that is essentially out of the market."
Says who? Get it back on the market "raw" and make a profit. Very nice looking coin for good price you say. IMO, this coin would pass as OK by most collectors. Right now it looks like an "off color" coin that posters with years of experience could detect. A little treatment would make the coin appear brown w/traces of the "red" color but we don't know the coin's actual "in hand" color. This is a coin I would probably leave as is (see above - looks OK to most) and trade out of it as in my experience, even dealers would think the coin was nice enough to price in the unc range.